It is 4 in the morning...

[Tres Wright]

Originally Posted by Angel001

A long time ago I had wondered if "the time of Jacob's trouble" was this terrible time that Daniel saw...actually starting in 70 AD and climaxing in the Holocaust...resulting in Israel being a nation again.

No, it sounds like it might help if you do a study on Daniel's 70 weeks. God's dispensation with His people (the Jews) is currently on hold. 69 of the 70 weeks were completed at the time Christ was crucified, and at that moment God's dispensation with the Jews (the Age of Law) officially went on hold. The entire Age of Grace that we live in is the pause between the 69th and 70th weeks and is God's dispensation with the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the Church will be Raptured and the 70th week (the Tribulation) will begin. The Tribulation is a resumption of the Age of Law. The "Time of Jacob's Trouble" refers to the Great Trib (final 3-1/2 years), not the Holocaust. As bad as the Holocaust was, the final part of the Trib is going to be much worse.

[JesusIsLord]

Originally Posted by Tres Wright

No, it sounds like it might help if you do a study on Daniel's 70 weeks. God's dispensation with His people (the Jews) is currently on hold. 69 of the 70 weeks were completed at the time Christ was crucified, and at that moment God's dispensation with the Jews (the Age of Law) officially went on hold. The entire Age of Grace that we live in is the pause between the 69th and 70th weeks and is God's dispensation with the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the Church will be Raptured and the 70th week (the Tribulation) will begin. The Tribulation is a resumption of the Age of Law. The "Time of Jacob's Trouble" refers to the Great Trib (final 3-1/2 years), not the Holocaust. As bad as the Holocaust was, the final part of the Trib is going to be much worse.

Angel001,

We cannot yet have seen the fulfillment of the "Time of Jacob's trouble" because that happens in the last half of the 70th Week of Daniel, preceding the physical return of Christ to this earth to establish His Millennial Kingdom to fulfill what has been spoken by the prophets regarding Israel. As Tres Wright correctly stated, at the time of Christ's death, 69 weeks had passed. But the OT didnt foresee a gap between the 69th and 70th week to establish the Church as to have the "fullness of the Gentiles" come in. Israel has been blinded in part until this happens.

You see, there have been many Antichrists in the past/present (Antiochus Epiphanes, Hitler, Mahmoud Ahmadenijad, etc). These personalities are Types of THE Antichrist to come. They all did terrible things to God's people. But THE Antichrist will be a combination of all of these wretched men, which is why it is easy to see a future time (2nd half of the Tribulation) fulfilling the Time of Jacob's Trouble, never again to be equaled. We wont be around to see this, because the Church wasnt here for the first 69 weeks.....why would it need to be here for the 70th week? Indeed, unless you hold to Replacement Theology, the 70 weeks were decreed "for your people and your Holy city" (Israel / Jerusalem).

Hope this helps.

[Angel001]

I am familiar with the pause between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. However...if prophecy has been fulfilled 100% why do we look for it to be fulfilled a second time? Those prophecies with "long and short term" mixed...means a part of it has not been completed.
For examples..Damascus,Babylon...they have been "knocked down" throughout history..but have not ceased to be yet...that part is still to come.
What is ancient history to us was future times to Daniel and the OT prophets.
I guess what has bothered me is this...God says many times that once the Jews were back in their land after being scattered,that they would remain there...even in the prophecies of Ezekiel,Jeremiah,Isaiah,....
Once returned,they would go through a time of refining on their way back to God...not another scattering or "holocaust". Scripture does say that when Damascus is destroyed,Israel too will be pretty sparse of people..which leads to the return of the Jewish people from throughout the world...all of them.
I don't know when ,where or who started the pause between the 69th and 70th week...or said the Jews were doomed for another worse holocaust in our future.
I do find it interesting though that their scattering followed the Romans who slaughtered 2/3 of them and Israel was again a nation after Hitler murdered 2/3 of them...kind of ironic there.
I am not saying current thinking isn't the way it will happen...because I don't know.
If you read the 2 trumpetsounds articles concerning the holocaust and read the link I post here...there are other sound Scriptural/historical proof that Daniel 11 has been fulfilled "to the letter".
That doesn't mean all is fulfilled...the rapture has not happened yet and we are not in the MK yet. The Tribulation period ...the DOTL...will be the most devastating time for the Earth ever. Revelation pretty much describes that....wars,famines,disease,death of 2/3 of the whole population...not going to be much left except the land of Israel when it is all over.
That devastation (of the Trib) seems to fall upon "the nations"...but I do not see Israel mentioned ...prophecy has them rebuilding,turning back to God,a place of safety ...an ongoing process up to our Lord's return when they know Him as Messiah.
When the ac declares he be worshipped and institutes the MOB...those Jews who do not accept it will flee and be protected by God.
But..what of those who accept the mark? They will most likely remain in Israel,free from persecution...having a semblance of being in charge..much like Herod's time.
If there is a "pause" in Scripture...it has put the Jews right back where they left off when Rome scattered them. (jmho)
I guess my concern is what Bob from trumpetsounds had to say. Studying prophecy can have very grave results if you are wrong in what you preach as being fact.
My own opinion is God did not give us prophecy to make us fortune tellers...he gave it to prove Himself
. We KNOW the outcome and even the road as to how we get there.It is all outlined...we just do not see clearly.
As far as historical proof of prophecy...the sages are Israel's expert historians. And they believe Daniel 11 has been fulfilled...historical facts seem to back this up.
I will keep an open mind as we prepare to see God's plan continue to unfold.
If any of you have read my posts re the coming Arab war prior to Gog..my studies have led me to believe there may be a substantial period of time between the 2. I believe Israel will prosper because the survivors turn back to God. They rebuild and as a nation become wealthy at this time. Ezekiel 38 says they are living in peace. God says this also (paraphrased...although He sets the hook...He says "did you not know" ? (that Israel is living in peace).
Looks clear to me...no false safety here.
But that is just my take on it...I could be wrong.
If Gog occurs shortly after the Arab war...guess I am. But IF there is a time of rebuilding...I won't be surprised.
If the "man of peace" comes in peace to Israel with an economic agreement /trade deal...as opposed to a we won't go to war with you type peace treaty...I won't be surprised...coming in peace is not necessarily a "peace" treaty. Israel is going to have a lot of goods needed in the world...after Gog...the whole ME except for Israel will be in shambles.
Sages place the Sycthians (sp ?) as the people who lived at that time...as living around the Black/Caspian Seas. Today...they are the Russians...although they also are the people of Finland...which is farther north than Russia...so why stop at Russia? (yes...I am saying that "tongue in cheek...but just trying to make a point). Current teaching has Russia alligned with Gog...although to look at it from the prophets time...actually makes more sense...they are the remaining Muslim nations after the Arab war.
It includes nations such as Pakistan with the confederate Gog pact. They already have nuke weapons....it would not take too many weapons to obliterate Israel. There would/will be a mass army with just the Muslim nations,Russia really is not needed to fulfill this prophecy.
Will Russia be a part of this war...possibly. But if they are not,it isn't going to shake my faith.Gog...whoever...will be destroyed. But I do worry about those who believe Russia will be destroyed here...what happens IF that does not happen? It worries me.
I wonder about people who have heard the Word, yet rejected Christ. The Left Behind series has people who did just that becoming major players in helping Israel during the Trib. That is not Scripturally sound...God has said it will be better for those who never heard the Word then for those who have heard and rejected It.
I know of people who say "well...when it happens I just won't take the mark". I hope for their sake that will be possible...not to sure they won't just accept whatever.
Anyway...here is a historical overview of Israel that seems to coincide with Daniel 11.

http://users.cwnet.com/dalede/dan11.htm

[Seated]

Believers are not the only ones reading the Bible. Satan does (he quoted it to Jesus). Satan also reads newspapers and other human printed matter. Here's what he read in 1917:

Balfour Declaration of 1917

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[1]

The declaration was made in a letter from Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland, a Zionist organization. The letter reflected the position of the British Cabinet, as agreed upon in a meeting on 31 October 1917. It further stated that the declaration is a sign of "sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations."

The statement was issued through the efforts of Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, the principal Zionist leaders based in London but, as they had asked for the reconstitution of Palestine as “the” Jewish national home, the Declaration fell short of Zionist expectations.[2]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library.

The anniversary of the Declaration, 2 November, is widely commemorated in Israel and among Jews in the Jewish diaspora as Balfour Day.

Source

When satan read the Balfour Declaration, what do you suppose he thought? He couldn't have been pleased with Israel becoming a nation again, as that would be a fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. Satan has always deluded himself with the idea that if he destroyed Israel, God's people, then he would have defeated God and shown God to be a liar. In perpetrating the Holocaust, instead of defeating God, the effect was the opposite, with the world's sympathy turning towards Israel having their own land. The UN ratified the Balfour Declaration with their own, and Israel became a nation again. The Prophetic wheel could once again start turning and the stage would be set for God to once again intervene in the affairs of Israel and the gentile nations.

Don't be deceived. The time of "Jacob's trouble" happens when the rest of the world is embroiled in God's judgments, a time which Jesus described as worse than any before or after and one in which God purposely limited in time or all humankind would have been destroyed. That hasn't happened yet.

If you want to believe something, then believe this. Satan knows his time is limited now. He is pulling out all the stops. Which do you think satan prefers? Jews going in groups into gas chambers and then ovens, or an Iran which is capable of wiping all of Israel out with nuclear weapons (and remember, nuclear weapons will render the land uninhabitable)? When Iran lies to the world about their real aim, does it not come from the "father of lies"? He continues to suffer from his own delusions about defeating God.

When satan in confined to the earth and can persecute Israel face-to-face in the form of a human anti-christ, that will truly be the time of "Jacob's trouble".

[Angel001]

Just a quick thought as I reread the post from JesusisLord and Tres Wright.
What if the Nazi "final solution" was the last part of the TOJT's? I know the Trib will be even worse...numbers of Christians and others who refuse the mark....but perhaps not for the Jews. Again...TOJT was for the Jews. Tribulation will encompass all who refuse the mark...and NOT the Jews who refuse it as they will be protected.
I can not fathom in my own mind a more terrible time (have been reading exactly what the holocaust involved)..even getting beheaded would not compare to what was done to the Jews under Hitler and his SS.
Yes...the numbers killed will be higher for worldwide persecution....but to read exactly what was done to these prisoners in the death camps is appalling. Hitler and his minions...severely demented/satanically influenced.
It is easy to understand why Daniel was so sickened after this vision.
Post note...historically it is believed 6 million Jews lost their life at Hitler's hands. These are only the number taken from the death camps. It does not include the concentration camps,slave camps,ghetto mass murders or those killed while waiting to board the trains to the death camps.
When we think of the camps..we think of the big ones..Actually there were 15,000 camps scattered throughout Nazi occupied Europe.
Time of Jacob's Troubles includes a vision of the holocaust?....not sure..but very plausible. jmho

[Angel001]

Originally Posted by Seated

Believers are not the only ones reading the Bible. Satan does (he quoted it to Jesus). Satan also reads newspapers and other human printed matter. Here's what he read in 1917:



Source

When satan read the Balfour Declaration, what do you suppose he thought? He couldn't have been pleased with Israel becoming a nation again, as that would be a fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. Satan has always deluded himself with the idea that if he destroyed Israel, God's people, then he would have defeated God and shown God to be a liar. In perpetrating the Holocaust, instead of defeating God, the effect was the opposite, with the world's sympathy turning towards Israel having their own land. The UN ratified the Balfour Declaration with their own, and Israel became a nation again. The Prophetic wheel could once again start turning and the stage would be set for God to once again intervene in the affairs of Israel and the gentile nations.

Don't be deceived. The time of "Jacob's trouble" happens when the rest of the world is embroiled in God's judgments, a time which Jesus described as worse than any before or after and one in which God purposely limited in time or all humankind would have been destroyed. That hasn't happened yet.

If you want to believe something, then believe this. Satan knows his time is limited now. He is pulling out all the stops. Which do you think satan prefers? Jews going in groups into gas chambers and then ovens, or an Iran which is capable of wiping all of Israel out with nuclear weapons (and remember, nuclear weapons will render the land uninhabitable)? When Iran lies to the world about their real aim, does it not come from the "father of lies"? He continues to suffer from his own delusions about defeating God.

When satan in confined to the earth and can persecute Israel face-to-face in the form of a human anti-christ, that will truly be the time of "Jacob's trouble".

I am certain Satan prefers a nuke armed Persia et al.(Hitler actually began his evil plan around 1922..with the ultimate goal of killing all the Jews). I also believe THAT plan will be easily thwarted by God as Gog goes down into defeat. Satan has always had an ac ready to sweep in at the endtimes (whenever they happen).jmho (He does not know the time until he is tossed out of Heaven).
The last statement in your post....the ac is not just going to persecute Israel....as a matter of fact he is not going to be able to touch the remnant that does not accept him. Those who do accept him in Israel...he will not need to kill them...they accept him and with those he has "beaten" God in his own mind.
As a matter of fact...he will not persecute anyone that accepts him...but there will be an uncountable number of people worldwide who do not accept him. THEY are the ones who will be killed.
So...respectfully...I will continue to keep an open mind and see what transpires. As far as the Trib...I can have a frontrow seat from Heaven if I really want to watch.

[BlessedAssurance]

Originally Posted by Angel001

Just a quick thought as I reread the post from JesusisLord and Tres Wright.
What if the Nazi "final solution" was the last part of the TOJT's? I know the Trib will be even worse...numbers of Christians and others who refuse the mark....but perhaps not for the Jews. Again...TOJT was for the Jews. Tribulation will encompass all who refuse the mark...and NOT the Jews who refuse it as they will be protected.
I can not fathom in my own mind a more terrible time (have been reading exactly what the holocaust involved)..even getting beheaded would not compare to what was done to the Jews under Hitler and his SS.
Yes...the numbers killed will be higher for worldwide persecution....but to read exactly what was done to these prisoners in the death camps is appalling. Hitler and his minions...severely demented/satanically influenced.
It is easy to understand why Daniel was so sickened after this vision.
Post note...historically it is believed 6 million Jews lost their life at Hitler's hands. These are only the number taken from the death camps. It does not include the concentration camps,slave camps,ghetto mass murders or those killed while waiting to board the trains to the death camps.
When we think of the camps..we think of the big ones..Actually there were 15,000 camps scattered throughout Nazi occupied Europe.
Time of Jacob's Troubles includes a vision of the holocaust?....not sure..but very plausible. jmho

I've been following this discussion with interest. I am asking this out of genuine interest, and the tone of the question is in no way snarky.

Does it matter that not only the Jews were persecuted at that time (of Hitler's Holocaust) but also gypsies, homosexuals, ministers, political prisoners, etc?

Also, a recently posted video of Hal Lindsay tells the story of a Christian minister in Dachau (sp). The minister said that 10s of thousands of Jews came to Christ through the Holocaust. Does that make a difference?

Just curious. Never heard this line of reasoning before.

[Angel001]

Originally Posted by BlessedAssurance

I've been following this discussion with interest. I am asking this out of genuine interest, and the tone of the question is in no way snarky.

Does it matter that not only the Jews were persecuted at that time (of Hitler's Holocaust) but also gypsies, homosexuals, ministers, political prisoners, etc?

Also, a recently posted video of Hal Lindsay tells the story of a Christian minister in Dachau (sp). The minister said that 10s of thousands of Jews came to Christ through the Holocaust. Does that make a difference?

Just curious. Never heard this line of reasoning before.

No snarkiness taken
This "line of reasonong " is something I have only recently found teachings on,although the questions were in my mind for a long time. It really does not matter that others were killed by Hitler...his ultimate plan was to exterminate the Jews of Europe...and anywhere else he could. Also the fact that many Jews may have converted ...makes no difference either..in the "political" sense. He still murdered those of Jewish blood..irregardless of conversion.But it mattered a great deal to those who died believing Christ as Messiah.
None of it really matters in the sense that God's plan will unfold as He has said it would. Jesus will be the ultimate victor and come into His rightful place as King.
I just think we need to study and discuss amongst each other,and be open to slightly different interpretations...I guarantee,none of us at this point in time have all the answers w/100% accuracy.