It is 4 in the morning...

[Angel001]

.. and I have been awake searching for answers to a question that has been nagging me for quite some time.
What if we are missng a major prophetic event that has happened? It doesn't change the outcome ...but may put a different path to what happens in "the end times".
God has stated that the punishments that would afflict the Jews have all been disclosed to them. Yet there are few modern day teachers that speak on the Holocaust...an event that is close to the heart of most, if not all, Jews living today. Six million Jews were murdered under Hitler's "final solution" yet there is no Biblical prophecy concerning this matter? By God's Own word it HAS to be there. It is also the reason Israel was reborn in a day..fulfilling prophecy exactly as foretold.
A long time ago I had wondered if "the time of Jacob's trouble" was this terrible time that Daniel saw...actually starting in 70 AD and climaxing in the Holocaust...resulting in Israel being a nation again.
Although it has nagged me...I never really looked into it. The experts all seemed to say that this all refers to the Trib.So...I followed that belief.
A few times I thought about it but did nothing.
Recently this has been on my mind and as I have said ..it's 4 AM and I have been on line reading various sites.
I will post a few of these sites and I hope some of you RR members will read them and post some feedback.
Prophecy is short and long term...sometimes blended together and covering a long period of time.

http://www.bibleforetoldholocaust.co...837details.htm

http://www.revealingthefuture.com/hitler.htm

http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html

http://www.trumpetsounds.com/twothirds.html

http://www.trumpetsounds.com/writings.html

The last link gets you to Bob's page with many interesting articles ,based on Scripture, which cover lots of prophecies re Israel and the ME.

[BlessedAssurance]

So, just to make sure I understand the gist of all this, what do these sources say?

I've read three, but I'm unsure of the point?

It is currently 5 am, and I'm going to try to get my 4 hours soon, so I'm probably being dense.

Are you/they suggesting that the Jews have already experienced the Tribultion and are in the Millenium?

[Teotwawki]

Doesn't it say somewhere that the Jews would be scattered and given over to the sword?

[carob]

I think the first links objective was to say that the holocaust was actually mentioned in the bible. I have been up since 2am so you will probably need to verify my input.

[cheymat]

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

I believe the bold verses speak about the holocaust.

[cheymat]

Also see this post i just posted. It gives a good visual about the above verses.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=115697

[Traveling Through]

I may be wrong, but the OP seems to indicate that we are already in the Tribulation? If that is so, none of us seems to have been part of the Rapture. Isn't anyone missing?

[Caveman]

the OP's question is:

A long time ago I had wondered if "the time of Jacob's trouble" was this terrible time that Daniel saw...actually starting in 70 AD and climaxing in the Holocaust...resulting in Israel being a nation again.

However I think the text clearly speaks of the latter days...

7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

...

24The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

[tfcrew]

Ezekiel 37
1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

[Born Again 2006]

Absolutely enligtening is a book by Bill Salus entitled Isralestine.- The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East.

[Mishkins]

.. and I have been awake searching for answers to a question that has been nagging me for quite some time.
What if we are missng a major prophetic event that has happened? It doesn't change the outcome ...but may put a different path to what happens in "the end times".
God has stated that the punishments that would afflict the Jews have all been disclosed to them. Yet there are few modern day teachers that speak on the Holocaust...an event that is close to the heart of most, if not all, Jews living today. Six million Jews were murdered under Hitler's "final solution" yet there is no Biblical prophecy concerning this matter? By God's Own word it HAS to be there. It is also the reason Israel was reborn in a day..fulfilling prophecy exactly as foretold.
A long time ago I had wondered if "the time of Jacob's trouble" was this terrible time that Daniel saw...actually starting in 70 AD and climaxing in the Holocaust...resulting in Israel being a nation again.
Although it has nagged me...I never really looked into it. The experts all seemed to say that this all refers to the Trib.So...I followed that belief.
A few times I thought about it but did nothing.
Recently this has been on my mind and as I have said ..it's 4 AM and I have been on line reading various sites.
I will post a few of these sites and I hope some of you RR members will read them and post some feedback.
Prophecy is short and long term...sometimes blended together and covering a long period of time.

http://www.bibleforetoldholocaust.co...837details.htm

http://www.revealingthefuture.com/hitler.htm

http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html

http://www.trumpetsounds.com/twothirds.html

http://www.trumpetsounds.com/writings.html

The last link gets you to Bob's page with many interesting articles ,based on Scripture, which cover lots of prophecies re Israel and the ME.

Here is a snip of a very good article on this very topic. I have also listed the full web page address at the end of it. Hope this helps. We can't have you awake at 4am every morning!! LOL.

"In Jeremiah 30, we find prophecies that describe the horrors of the holocaust, and the subsequent restoration of the Jewish people to their own land that allows them to be free from oppression in foreign lands. God begins with one of His frequent declarations regarding the restoration of Israel to the land that was promised "'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD." .(Jeremiah 30:3 NIV)

That is a straightforward statement, easy to comprehend. We understand it to be speaking of the founding of the modern state of Israel in 1948. But the next verse conveys an abrupt change in tone, and may seem to not fit very well at first. However, now that we have the perspective of understanding the circumstances that surrounded the founding of Israel, we know to what it is referring.

"This is what the LORD says: "'Cries of fear are heard-- terror, not peace. Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:5-7 NIV)

When I read this, the picture it evokes is the haunting videos I've seen about the Holocaust. The pictures from the liberated death camps showed "every strong man" looking like a human skeleton, with every face turned deathly pale. Could a modern reporter have penned a more apt description than Jeremiah did? Certainly it was an awful day for Jacob. Certainly nothing else could be compared to it. The Holocaust was an incomparable time of trouble for Jacob, and though millions perished, the Jewish people as a whole were saved out of it, and their new nation was founded just a few years later.

Therefore, in this passage, we see juxtaposed allusions to both the Nazi Holocaust in 1939-1945, and the birth of the nation of Israel in 1948. However, many Bible commentators wish to incorrectly assign this phrase "time of Jacob's trouble" to the future Day of the Lord, even though there is nothing definitive that ties this to a future time period. Yet there is plenty that ties this passage in Jeremiah to the events of the 1940s.

The prophecy in Jeremiah 30 this tells us that at some point in history after Jeremiah penned these words, a time of incomparable terror was going to come upon the children of Israel. That period could have happened a hundred years after he wrote it or three thousand years after he wrote it. Certainly there is nothing to buttress the belief that it would be part of the final, final days of history.

Of course, even the phrase "the last days" as used in the Bible is often a difficult period to precisely pin down. "The last days" could, and probably does, refer to the period beginning with the first return of Jewish exiles to their ancient homeland in the late 1800s; or it could refer to the period of time beginning with Britain's liberating God's land from over a millennium of Muslim rule. It could have "started" with the rebirth of Israel in '48, or, if we tie it to Yeshua's words about Jerusalem being trodden on until the end of the times of the gentiles, it could have begun in 1967, and so on.

So verse 7 on its own simply tells us that at some point after it was written Israel would experience a time of unsurpassed suffering, and would be saved out of it. Verse 8 gives us a clue as to the period: "' In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them." (Jeremiah 30:8 NIV)

Here we read that, after the period of "Jacob's trouble" God Himself will liberate Israel out from it and from among those who have caused it. "Jacob's trouble" will thus have been Israel's suffering at the hands of oppressors (as opposed to what some teach as Israel experiencing the end of days judgmental outpouring of the wrath of God). The end of "Jacob's trouble" will thus also have marked the end of the people of Israel's being under the heels of the gentiles.

"Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them." (Jeremiah 30:9 NIV) Instead of being enslaved to gentiles, the people of Israel will serve YHWH their God and the restored King David - whom we know to be the Son of David, Jesus, their Messiah. This restoration to the land just described by Jeremiah will culminate in the reign of Jesus. Note that it does not say that immediately after they come out from "Jacob's trouble" they will be restored in their relationship with their God and His Anointed One, only that they will do so at some point after being saved out of that awful suffering. It is very common in Bible prophecy for us to see descriptions of the reign of Messiah in the same breath as descriptions of events that have already been fulfilled in the last one hundred years. The prophets saw the "last days" as a broad period of time that began with the restoration to the land and ended with the triumphant reign of the Messiah."

web page for further reading: http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html

[4Godisjust]

Here is a snip of a very good article on this very topic. I have also listed the full web page address at the end of it. Hope this helps. We can't have you awake at 4am every morning!! LOL.

"In Jeremiah 30, we find prophecies that describe the horrors of the holocaust, and the subsequent restoration of the Jewish people to their own land that allows them to be free from oppression in foreign lands. God begins with one of His frequent declarations regarding the restoration of Israel to the land that was promised "'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD." .(Jeremiah 30:3 NIV)

That is a straightforward statement, easy to comprehend. We understand it to be speaking of the founding of the modern state of Israel in 1948. But the next verse conveys an abrupt change in tone, and may seem to not fit very well at first. However, now that we have the perspective of understanding the circumstances that surrounded the founding of Israel, we know to what it is referring.

"This is what the LORD says: "'Cries of fear are heard-- terror, not peace. Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:5-7 NIV)

When I read this, the picture it evokes is the haunting videos I've seen about the Holocaust. The pictures from the liberated death camps showed "every strong man" looking like a human skeleton, with every face turned deathly pale. Could a modern reporter have penned a more apt description than Jeremiah did? Certainly it was an awful day for Jacob. Certainly nothing else could be compared to it. The Holocaust was an incomparable time of trouble for Jacob, and though millions perished, the Jewish people as a whole were saved out of it, and their new nation was founded just a few years later.

Therefore, in this passage, we see juxtaposed allusions to both the Nazi Holocaust in 1939-1945, and the birth of the nation of Israel in 1948. However, many Bible commentators wish to incorrectly assign this phrase "time of Jacob's trouble" to the future Day of the Lord, even though there is nothing definitive that ties this to a future time period. Yet there is plenty that ties this passage in Jeremiah to the events of the 1940s.

The prophecy in Jeremiah 30 this tells us that at some point in history after Jeremiah penned these words, a time of incomparable terror was going to come upon the children of Israel. That period could have happened a hundred years after he wrote it or three thousand years after he wrote it. Certainly there is nothing to buttress the belief that it would be part of the final, final days of history.

Of course, even the phrase "the last days" as used in the Bible is often a difficult period to precisely pin down. "The last days" could, and probably does, refer to the period beginning with the first return of Jewish exiles to their ancient homeland in the late 1800s; or it could refer to the period of time beginning with Britain's liberating God's land from over a millennium of Muslim rule. It could have "started" with the rebirth of Israel in '48, or, if we tie it to Yeshua's words about Jerusalem being trodden on until the end of the times of the gentiles, it could have begun in 1967, and so on.

So verse 7 on its own simply tells us that at some point after it was written Israel would experience a time of unsurpassed suffering, and would be saved out of it. Verse 8 gives us a clue as to the period: "' In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them." (Jeremiah 30:8 NIV)

Here we read that, after the period of "Jacob's trouble" God Himself will liberate Israel out from it and from among those who have caused it. "Jacob's trouble" will thus have been Israel's suffering at the hands of oppressors (as opposed to what some teach as Israel experiencing the end of days judgmental outpouring of the wrath of God). The end of "Jacob's trouble" will thus also have marked the end of the people of Israel's being under the heels of the gentiles.

"Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them." (Jeremiah 30:9 NIV) Instead of being enslaved to gentiles, the people of Israel will serve YHWH their God and the restored King David - whom we know to be the Son of David, Jesus, their Messiah. This restoration to the land just described by Jeremiah will culminate in the reign of Jesus. Note that it does not say that immediately after they come out from "Jacob's trouble" they will be restored in their relationship with their God and His Anointed One, only that they will do so at some point after being saved out of that awful suffering. It is very common in Bible prophecy for us to see descriptions of the reign of Messiah in the same breath as descriptions of events that have already been fulfilled in the last one hundred years. The prophets saw the "last days" as a broad period of time that began with the restoration to the land and ended with the triumphant reign of the Messiah."

web page for further reading: http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html

WOW..is all I can say, that was a good read, and it makes perfect sense. Now thinking about it, the holocust would have to be in the Bible. Which I would assume that it is, we have such an awesome God. He delievered them, and HE WILL deliver us soon. Thanks for this post, and thank you for this thread..

[Angel001]

the OP's question is:



However I think the text clearly speaks of the latter days...

7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

...

24The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Exactly...but when did the latter days begin. End times and latter days are not the same thing,are they? (always thought the end times were the Trib...latter days...when Israel was re-established perhaps?

[Angel001]

Here is a snip of a very good article on this very topic. I have also listed the full web page address at the end of it. Hope this helps. We can't have you awake at 4am every morning!! LOL.

"In Jeremiah 30, we find prophecies that describe the horrors of the holocaust, and the subsequent restoration of the Jewish people to their own land that allows them to be free from oppression in foreign lands. God begins with one of His frequent declarations regarding the restoration of Israel to the land that was promised "'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD." .(Jeremiah 30:3 NIV)

That is a straightforward statement, easy to comprehend. We understand it to be speaking of the founding of the modern state of Israel in 1948. But the next verse conveys an abrupt change in tone, and may seem to not fit very well at first. However, now that we have the perspective of understanding the circumstances that surrounded the founding of Israel, we know to what it is referring.

"This is what the LORD says: "'Cries of fear are heard-- terror, not peace. Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:5-7 NIV)

When I read this, the picture it evokes is the haunting videos I've seen about the Holocaust. The pictures from the liberated death camps showed "every strong man" looking like a human skeleton, with every face turned deathly pale. Could a modern reporter have penned a more apt description than Jeremiah did? Certainly it was an awful day for Jacob. Certainly nothing else could be compared to it. The Holocaust was an incomparable time of trouble for Jacob, and though millions perished, the Jewish people as a whole were saved out of it, and their new nation was founded just a few years later.

Therefore, in this passage, we see juxtaposed allusions to both the Nazi Holocaust in 1939-1945, and the birth of the nation of Israel in 1948. However, many Bible commentators wish to incorrectly assign this phrase "time of Jacob's trouble" to the future Day of the Lord, even though there is nothing definitive that ties this to a future time period. Yet there is plenty that ties this passage in Jeremiah to the events of the 1940s.

The prophecy in Jeremiah 30 this tells us that at some point in history after Jeremiah penned these words, a time of incomparable terror was going to come upon the children of Israel. That period could have happened a hundred years after he wrote it or three thousand years after he wrote it. Certainly there is nothing to buttress the belief that it would be part of the final, final days of history.

Of course, even the phrase "the last days" as used in the Bible is often a difficult period to precisely pin down. "The last days" could, and probably does, refer to the period beginning with the first return of Jewish exiles to their ancient homeland in the late 1800s; or it could refer to the period of time beginning with Britain's liberating God's land from over a millennium of Muslim rule. It could have "started" with the rebirth of Israel in '48, or, if we tie it to Yeshua's words about Jerusalem being trodden on until the end of the times of the gentiles, it could have begun in 1967, and so on.

So verse 7 on its own simply tells us that at some point after it was written Israel would experience a time of unsurpassed suffering, and would be saved out of it. Verse 8 gives us a clue as to the period: "' In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them." (Jeremiah 30:8 NIV)

Here we read that, after the period of "Jacob's trouble" God Himself will liberate Israel out from it and from among those who have caused it. "Jacob's trouble" will thus have been Israel's suffering at the hands of oppressors (as opposed to what some teach as Israel experiencing the end of days judgmental outpouring of the wrath of God). The end of "Jacob's trouble" will thus also have marked the end of the people of Israel's being under the heels of the gentiles.

"Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them." (Jeremiah 30:9 NIV) Instead of being enslaved to gentiles, the people of Israel will serve YHWH their God and the restored King David - whom we know to be the Son of David, Jesus, their Messiah. This restoration to the land just described by Jeremiah will culminate in the reign of Jesus. Note that it does not say that immediately after they come out from "Jacob's trouble" they will be restored in their relationship with their God and His Anointed One, only that they will do so at some point after being saved out of that awful suffering. It is very common in Bible prophecy for us to see descriptions of the reign of Messiah in the same breath as descriptions of events that have already been fulfilled in the last one hundred years. The prophets saw the "last days" as a broad period of time that began with the restoration to the land and ended with the triumphant reign of the Messiah."

web page for further reading: http://www.trumpetsounds.com/howawful.html

Bob brings up a lot of good points on various subjects which are not quite "current viewpoints " 100%. Lots of articles on the coming "Arab war" as well. Makes you sit up and wonder ...and think.

[Angel001]

This is another good article concerning the holocaust by Bob Westbrook. Why do you think I was awake till 4 AM reading this stuff about the holocaust and wondering if maybe current thought on the future of Israel may not be correct.


A Future Holocaust?
March 19, 2001




Interpretation of future events, as outlined by the prophecies of the Scriptures, is a challenging task. Yet it is a task that entails a great deal of responsibility for those who undertake it, for a misrepresentation of future expectations can have grave consequences. Accordingly, there is an interpretation of a single verse, frequently presented from Bible teachers, that in my opinion has seriously distorted the understanding of the future of the Jewish people.
This teaching can be summarized as follows: there is yet a future holocaust for the Jewish people, worse than the Nazi holocaust, during which two-thirds of the world's Jewish population will perish. This is based on a single verse in the Bible, Zechariah 13:8, and unfortunately is a very popular teaching among Evangelical Christians. Yet it is an interpretation that is entirely without credible basis or merit.

One of the most important principles of Biblical interpretation is to examine the context of a verse. On occasion, with prophetic passages, there is little context that will assist us in understanding a verse, but fortunately, this passage in Zechariah is not one of those occasions. Let's look at the entire passage first, from a few different translations:

Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the Lord of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; then I will turn My hand against the little ones. And it shall come to pass in all the land," says the Lord, "that two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, but one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; and each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' (Zech 13:7-9 NKJV)

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man who is my associate!" says the LORD of Hosts. "Smite the shepherd, and the sheep [of the flock] will be scattered, and I will turn back my hand and stretch it out again upon the little ones [of the flock]. "And in all the land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be cut off and perish; yet one-third will be left alive. And I will bring the third part through the fire; and will refine them as silver is refined and will test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will hear and answer them; I will say, 'It is my people,' and they will say, 'the LORD is my God.'" (Zech 13:7-9 Amplified)

"Sword, hit the shepherd. Attack the man who is my friend," says the Lord All-Powerful. "Kill the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter, and I will punish the little ones." The Lord says, "Two-thirds of the people through all the land will die. They will be gone, and one-third will be left. The third that is left I will test with fire, purifying them like silver, testing them like gold. Then they will call on me, and I will answer them. I will say, 'You are my people,' and they will say, 'The Lord is our God.'" (NCV)

Jesus Himself provides us with some information about this prophecy. Just before His arrest, He quoted a portion of it, "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered" to announce to his disciples the dire news that every one of them would temporarily desert Him. Thus, we know that this act of violence that will "awaken" against the "shepherd" is referring to His arrest and execution. Jesus is the man who is the "associate" of the Lord God, translated by other versions as "my companion," "my partner," "my fellow," "my friend"" and "the man who is close to me." The Messiah, the only man who on his own merit could be God's close companion and associate, would be struck down. The next verses describe the immediate results of that.

Though Jesus applied the phrase "the sheep will be scattered" to his small brand of His disciples, it is evident from the context that "the sheep, the little ones" also has a broader meaning. In the next phrase, which Jesus pointedly did not quote in reference to his disciples, it says "I will turn my hand against the little ones." This is God speaking, and clearly He is not speaking about the disciples here, whom God did not turn against. Of whom is He speaking?

Sadly, Jesus had prophesied about the people against whom God would turn His hand because of their rejection of the Messiah. As Jesus approached Jerusalem for the last time, and 'saw the city, he wept over it and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."' (Luke 19:41-44 NIV)

Jesus cried openly because He foresaw what would happen in Israel in the near future. God would strike the sheep, because of what had happened to the shepherd. The metaphor of Israel as the sheep rejecting the shepherd was a continuation of the prophetic concept of Zechariah 11:4-14. In that prophecy, the Lord had informed them "I will not be your shepherd" any longer, because of their rejection of Him. (See The Flock Doomed To Slaughter).

Therefore, when the Lord said, "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones," He was speaking of the incredibly horrible devastation and destruction that would befall Jerusalem and Israel a few short decades later. In the next breath, Zechariah gives accurate details about the extent of the sentence that had been handed down by the Lord, details that have been historically verified. "In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left."

As a result of the Lord turning His hand against His own sheep of Israel, in the tragic massacres at the hands of the Romans in AD 70 and 132, the total population of Jews declined from 4.5 million to 1.5 million. Indeed, this prophecy was fulfilled exactly as Zechariah had foretold. Two-thirds of the Jewish people died in this ghastly purge, and one-third was left alive, to be scattered among the nations.

Other Bible commentators agree that that two-thirds prophecy was fulfilled in 70 through 132 AD. Matthew Henry's commentary on Zechariah 13:8 states, "The Roman army laid the country waste, and slew at least two-thirds of the Jews." Keil and Delitzsch concur: "cutting off of the two-thirds of Israel commenced in the Jewish war under Vespasian and Titus, and in the war for the suppression of the rebellion led by the pseudo-Messiah Bar Cochba." John Walvoord writes: "The scattering of the sheep also seems to refer to the scattering of the Jewish nation when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70." John Wesley says of this verse, "the greater part shall die a temporal death, by the sword of Titus."

Josephus, the Jewish historian who was present at the scene, graphically described the horrors of those days. The Jewish people suffered terribly when God "turned His hand" against them at that time. Yet God, in His great compassion, provided a word of hope to Israel in the next verse. Even though the Lord had declared "I will not be your shepherd" to Israel, this decision was temporary, not permanent. Even in judgment, God remembered mercy. The one-third that remained after the judgments would not be entirely rejected, but would be refined, and ultimately, restored. "This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'" (Zec 13:9 NIV)

This verse takes a very long view of the history of the Jewish people between 132 AD, when Rome completed its devastation of Israel, and the day when Israel will once again call upon the name of the Lord. The interim centuries have been a story of refining for the Jewish people, a long process of being put "in the fire," to bring them to the place where they will be prepared for their final restoration and revival. Though He "turned His hand" against them for a short period, He will once again say of them, "They are my people." Isaiah confirms this: "I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." (Isa 1:25-26 NIV)

Thus, we can see that these verses have been precisely fulfilled, except for the last portion, which is in the process of being fulfilled. Therefore, it is irresponsible and presumptuous for so many Bible teachers to flippantly parrot the assertion that Israel faces a future holocaust worse than the Nazi holocaust, during in which two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered. There is no other Biblical evidence for this claim, and basing it on one verse which has a historically verifiable past fulfillment is doing a great disservice to the recipients of the message, not to mention the Jewish people themselves.

I'm not sure who was the originator of this pernicious teaching, but it is uncritically repeated by nearly all Bible prophecy "experts." Whether or not one agrees with my understanding of these verses, certainly there is enough reasonable doubt about the concept of a future purge of two-thirds of world Jewry as to lead responsible teachers to a more circumspect approach.

The incorrect teaching also contradicts one of the major, vital works that God is doing in these last days: the spiritual restoration of Israel. As we know from numerous other prophetic Scriptures, God is renewing His care for Israel. They have been returned to the land in fulfillment of the first phase of end-time prophecy, and now we are seeing the beginning of the fulfillment of the second phase. "For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants. They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams. One will say, 'I belong to the LORD'; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The Lord's,' and will take the name Israel." (Isa 44:3-5 NIV)

The concept that Jews will undergo another holocaust after Christians are raptured away is not correct. On the contrary, according to Revelation 12, it will be the Jewish people who will be supernaturally protected during that time, while the Christians will be facing mass persecution and martyrdom at the hands of the antichrist. This will be addressed further in a future article.

The important point to consider is this: do not uncritically accept the teachings of the popular Bible prophecy "experts" - there is really no such thing as an expert on this subject. We are all just trying to piece it together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but our understanding is far from complete. However, teaching about these topics is a very grave responsibility, and to easily toss out statements such as "two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered in a future holocaust," without a solid Scriptural basis, is cause for censure.



Bob Westbrook 3/19/01

[Caveman]

Hmmm, well as we know, many prophecies have a 2, even 3-fold fulfillment
it does leave me to wonder now, and need some more study on this one,

I always thought as someone said the "holocaust took 1 of every 3 jews, the trib will take 2 of 3"

i'll need to do some more research on this one

thx for posting those articles

[Angel001]

So, just to make sure I understand the gist of all this, what do these sources say?

I've read three, but I'm unsure of the point?

It is currently 5 am, and I'm going to try to get my 4 hours soon, so I'm probably being dense.

Are you/they suggesting that the Jews have already experienced the Tribultion and are in the Millenium?

NO...Not at all. The Trib and MK are yet to come. But....if the prophecy of Jacob's time of trouble has already been fulfilled...are the Jews going to suffer another? The Romans and Hitler killed about 2/3 of the Jewish population at those times in history. The first led to the scattering of the Jews...the 2nd returned them to their land. God said once He brought them back,they weren't leaving again.
God has protected Israel since the return of the people. They have won all the wars since 1948 and it appears Scripturally they will continue to do so. They will suffer great loss in the 'Arab war" that seems to be just over the horizon...but this is where they will return to God. Because of this they will rebuild and prosper...gaining land that was their's from God. (all of it eventually but at least the east bank at this time,and the "Pallies" will no longer be a problem.
Gog/Magog...it does not appear that war actually happens...at least not to Israel. Gog and his armies are destroyed in the mountains and buried east of the Dead Sea....currently Jordan but if Israel is burying them east of the sea...then they must own that land at that time.
The ac will kill those who do not recieve the mark....and the Jews who do not accept it apparently flee to Petra...or into the mountains. Petra is currently in Jordan....land Israel may repossess by the end of the Arab war.God protects them here.
There will be Jews who will take the mark (very possibly) and they will not have to flee...they will remain in Israel.The ac does not have to kill them...he has them.
I can not find anything in Revelation that points to destruction in Israel...until the very end when Christ returns.
Even at Armageddon...the armies of the world are not there to destroy Israel,although IF this war did happen every living thing on Earth,including Israel,would die.
These armies are the ac and the kings of the east..there to battle each other. There is not much left of Earth's population at this time...but they come together to fight Christ when He shows up and consequently are wiped out.
Israel then enters the MK.
Not sure it is Scripturally sound that Israel will face yet another "holocaust"...Trib saints...yes,but not Israel.

[Angel001]

I think the first links objective was to say that the holocaust was actually mentioned in the bible. I have been up since 2am so you will probably need to verify my input.

I knew it had to be because God said He told them all that would befall them. Something as big as the holocaust would deserve "big time" attention...yet I never heard any prophecy teacher address it.
In reading up on it..2/3 of the Jews were killed by the Romans and by Hitler.
If the time of Jacob's trouble had already happened...then maybe there is not going to be another at the hands of the ac and part of current teaching regarding the end times and Israel might not be correct.
See the links to trumpetsounds...explains it very well.

[Angel001]

I may be wrong, but the OP seems to indicate that we are already in the Tribulation? If that is so, none of us seems to have been part of the Rapture. Isn't anyone missing?

No...we are not in the Trib yet. And we didn't miss the Rapture.
Just saying the "Time of Jacob's trouble" that many prophecy experts teach will come in the Trib...may not be so. See the posts with links to Trumpetsounds...

[derLinder]

oh, oh, oh! My goodness! This makes perfect sense! Light bulbs are going off like crazy for me! I prayed to the Lord to please reveal to me what this all means that you guys were talking about. Boy did He answer!

The end of "Jacob's trouble" will thus also have marked the end of the people of Israel's being under the heels of the gentiles.

aha! "The time of the gentiles are fulfilled"! Maybe doesn't mean a finite number of believers to come before the Rapture, as so many think. The time of the gentiles are fulfilled when Israel is no longer subject to them! Our "role", the role of the gentiles...is fulfilled...oh...my...gosh....

Of course He would address the Holocaust. Why wouldn't He? These are His People! I often wondered about that too...oh wow...He did address it...

You guys are witnessing a live epiphany...Yes. That's it! THAT was Jacob's trouble. I asked on another thread what "Jacob's trouble" was. They said it was the tribulation. Uh, uh...that's not right...

Oh boy...Man, is He ever near...get ready everyone, He's coming...at the door!