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  • #31
    I don't believe the rapture will be secret at all. I just believe the world will not understand, nor put it to mind, as to what has happened. My thinking comes from two Old Testament verses:

    Isaiah 57:1-2

    1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

    2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

    Micah 7: 1-7

    1 Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.

    2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

    3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.

    4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.

    5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.

    6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

    7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by HumbleBerean View Post
      I have heard some commentators recently claim that the rapture does not happen or happens after the tribulation. One of the reasons they all seemed to cite was that they did not see anything in Scripture to support Jesus returning "secretly" to rapture the church.

      It has me second guessing myself. I thought I had a pretty firm grip on what the bible teaches on eschatology. I dont see the rapture as a secret event.

      At the rapture Christ meets us in the air, right? This is not His second coming, right?

      The rapture is more like the ascension which took place in full view of many as opposed to the resurrection which took place in the tomb that no human witnessed, right?

      If it is a secret event, what is the reasoning for this position?
      If you have doubts then just start reading the info on the main RR site. There's plenty there to dispel all doubts. These are good starting points:

      My Fascination With The Pre-Trib Rapture
      The Pretribulation Rapture
      Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture

      I think the problem with people who seek to discredit the pre-trib Rapture is that they do not look at the big picture. They instead try to pick apart individual passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and explain why those passage mean something else. If one looks at the big picture though, one will see that the whole is greater than the parts. The "whole" is that God started a dispensation with the Jews, and it is referred to as the 70 weeks of Daniel. 69 of those weeks ended on the very date that the Jews refused to acknowledge Christ as the Son of God in Jerusalem and instead gave Him up for crucifiction. God's dispensation with the Jews officially went on hold as a result of that moment with one "week" remaining and He started a new dispensation with the Gentiles. We positively know that He is not finished with the Jews. We also know that the remaining week (the 70th week) is also known as "The Time of Jacob's Trouble", or the Tribulation. And we know that the Gentile dispensation must end for the Jewish dispensation to resume. Soooooo, where do the saved Gentiles go before the Trib starts? What happens to them? Hmmmm?

      As for the Rapture being a secret event, we really don't know. It's not clear from Scripture. Some point to 1 Corinthians 15:52 as meaning the Rapture will be secret and mysterious and they may be right. But 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says there will be a shout and a trumpet (which could be heard by all, or possibly just believers), so it could be either.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by His Bride View Post
        It won't be a secret to those He calls home. We will have been watching and occupying....and ready to go!
        Amen!

        Comment


        • #34
          In my opinion i believe there will be a rapture, but i'd be lieing to myself if there wasn't just a little doubt if i really is true, i'm not sure if anyone is aware of who started this whole rapture teaching but to make a long story short a man by the name of John Darby started the whole view and his primary source for going public with it was with confirmation from a women who had ties to the occult name mary macdonald.

          Apparently Mary had visions from God that a rapture would happen and i believe in people having visions, but this women had ocultic ties which should raise a red flag.

          Plus as i understand things every bible teacher up until 1827, had a firm belief that the verses used as evidence for the rapture which are 1 Thessalonians 4:1517, John 14:23, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:4955, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, Matthew 24:36-41 talked about Jesus second coming at the end of the tribulation not 7 years before.

          Now i'm not saying the rapture is false i'm just saying that when u read the bible, you really can't prove that the rapture is true or false, what should make people think in my opnion is how the whole idea of a pre-trib rapture got started, the foundation of the idea was taken from Mary Macdonald infact John Darby didn't really believe the pre trib rapture untill after he heard the visions of mary.

          Draw your own conclusions but i always think to myself that if the rapture didn''t happen how many people would lose their faith based on that alone, hopefully no one. If anyone has anything that can correct or refute what i have posted about John Darby and Mary Macdonald please do cause it would be horrible to actually find out that the rapture might not be true.

          Comment


          • #35
            I was confused myself a few years ago because many different views had been presented to me, after reading Buzzardhut's explanation: http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?7078...-of-the-Church .I realized that pretrib rapture makes the most sense to me.
            I think the rapture will be leave those who do not believe speechless until they are given a reason to believe the big deception from antichrist spirit and the Lord gives them over to believe the lie! This may be why some say it is secret. Know one really knows for sure but the Lord. Pray about it and I will too.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by RVIDES View Post
              In my opinion i believe there will be a rapture, but i'd be lieing to myself if there wasn't just a little doubt if i really is true, i'm not sure if anyone is aware of who started this whole rapture teaching but to make a long story short a man by the name of John Darby started the whole view and his primary source for going public with it was with confirmation from a women who had ties to the occult name mary macdonald.

              Apparently Mary had visions from God that a rapture would happen and i believe in people having visions, but this women had ocultic ties which should raise a red flag.

              Plus as i understand things every bible teacher up until 1827, had a firm belief that the verses used as evidence for the rapture which are 1 Thessalonians 4:1517, John 14:23, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:4955, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, Matthew 24:36-41 talked about Jesus second coming at the end of the tribulation not 7 years before.

              Now i'm not saying the rapture is false i'm just saying that when u read the bible, you really can't prove that the rapture is true or false, what should make people think in my opnion is how the whole idea of a pre-trib rapture got started, the foundation of the idea was taken from Mary Macdonald infact John Darby didn't really believe the pre trib rapture untill after he heard the visions of mary.

              Draw your own conclusions but i always think to myself that if the rapture didn''t happen how many people would lose their faith based on that alone, hopefully no one. If anyone has anything that can correct or refute what i have posted about John Darby and Mary Macdonald please do cause it would be horrible to actually find out that the rapture might not be true.
              Good thing it's just your opinion, eh?

              Why would the Lord call His children UP to meet Him (at the end of the tribulation as you claim could happen) just to turn around and bring us right back down . There are alot of scriptures, when read together, show that we will be raptured up before the Tribulation (also, God has not appointed us to wrath).

              As for losing faith because the rapture didn't happen.....since when is our faith based on the rapture in the first place? Our faith is in God's Grace, our faith is in Christ's work on the cross....the rapture is just a bonus!

              Comment


              • #37
                Hi RVRides-
                I didn't understand it until I listened to Jon Courson explain it- he has a great website- besides the teaching on the book of Revelations -there's a teaching on 1 Thess. that specifically teaches on the Rapture. I hope you check it out.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I was more second guessing my grasp of eschatology. Im not doubting a rapture or a pretrib rapture. I believe both to be strong scripturally. Make sense?

                  What struck me as odd was having ones who DONT believe in a rapture claim they dont think Jesus is coming back in secret. I agree, it wont be a secret. I never thought it was a secret.

                  If I am not mistaken the rapture came about because of the teaching of dispensationalism. Which is from John Darby. Never heard about the vision from that lady but I did a search and it came back Margaret MacDonald and good ol RR came up when I googled it

                  http://raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html

                  Dispensationalism explained a lot of the bible. The rapture and Revelation 2 and 3 as church ages is another that jumps out.

                  Some(not me)dont believe in dispensationalism but:

                  Daniel 12:4 (King James Version)
                  4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RVIDES View Post
                    In my opinion i believe there will be a rapture, but i'd be lieing to myself if there wasn't just a little doubt if i really is true, i'm not sure if anyone is aware of who started this whole rapture teaching but to make a long story short a man by the name of John Darby started the whole view and his primary source for going public with it was with confirmation from a women who had ties to the occult name mary macdonald.

                    Apparently Mary had visions from God that a rapture would happen and i believe in people having visions, but this women had ocultic ties which should raise a red flag.

                    Plus as i understand things every bible teacher up until 1827, had a firm belief that the verses used as evidence for the rapture which are 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17, John 14:2–3, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:49–55, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, Matthew 24:36-41 talked about Jesus second coming at the end of the tribulation not 7 years before.

                    Now i'm not saying the rapture is false i'm just saying that when u read the bible, you really can't prove that the rapture is true or false, what should make people think in my opnion is how the whole idea of a pre-trib rapture got started, the foundation of the idea was taken from Mary Macdonald infact John Darby didn't really believe the pre trib rapture untill after he heard the visions of mary.

                    Draw your own conclusions but i always think to myself that if the rapture didn''t happen how many people would lose their faith based on that alone, hopefully no one. If anyone has anything that can correct or refute what i have posted about John Darby and Mary Macdonald please do cause it would be horrible to actually find out that the rapture might not be true.
                    Let's put it this way.

                    Why would Jesus call his people up to meet him in the air when He, Himself is returning to Earth at the same time?

                    And, this doesn't sound like any secret to me:

                    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...10&version=NIV

                    Revelation 3:10 (New International Version)

                    10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RVIDES View Post
                      Draw your own conclusions but i always think to myself that if the rapture didn''t happen how many people would lose their faith based on that alone, hopefully no one. If anyone has anything that can correct or refute what i have posted about John Darby and Mary Macdonald please do cause it would be horrible to actually find out that the rapture might not be true.
                      If one's faith is based upon an event rather than Christ himself, then they have their faith in the wrong thing altogether!!!

                      We follow Christ, not the rapture; we long to be with him, and although at times it may sound like we want to escape this world, what we really want is to be in his presence.

                      As for the rapture being true, we have to look at scripture itself as the final authority on the matter:

                      "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, NIV)


                      Here is the original in greek:

                      ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον, ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῷ ἐσόμεθα.

                      Direct Translation for 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

                      " for himself lord with shout with voice of arch-agent and with trumpet of god will descend from heaven and dead with christ will rise first," - http://biblos.com/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm

                      "then we who are alive which remain together with them will be caught up to meet of lord in air and so always with lord we will be." http://biblos.com/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

                      In greek, the term "caught up" is ἁρπαγησόμεθα (arpagēsometha), which becomes harpazo when transliterated to english. In latin, it transliterates to raptus, from where we get our word "rapture".


                      Also, I believe I have found evidence in revelation that we will not only be raptured, but raptured BEFORE the tribulation:

                      "Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads" (Revelation 4:4, NIV)

                      In Greek:

                      καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνοι εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους καθημένους περιβεβλημένους ἱματίοις λευκοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς κεφαλὰς αὐτῶν στεφάνους χρυσοῦς.

                      Direct translation:

                      "and around throne throne twenty-four four and upon throne twenty-four four elders sitting clothed garments white and upon heads of them crowns golden" - http://biblos.com/revelation/4-4.htm

                      The 24 elders are clearly exalted, as they have crowns; and they are righteous, seeing as they are dressed in white, a sign of purity and holiness in scripture. As for their crowns, this is the clue to their identity: the greek word describing their crown is not diatomah, a crown of authority and command, but is instead stephanas, a wreath of victory. In scripture, those that strive for the prize in "the race" are promised a "crown of victory":

                      " Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever." (1 Corinthians 9:25, NIV)

                      So, we see then that by comparing it to scripture and looking at what the word "crown" denotes, it leaves one possibility: the church. And since the church is pictured with the Lord BEFORE the seals are broken, I think that both the original Greek and english versions prove the point sufficiently.

                      When God's word clearly says what will be, my faith isn't shattered should men's theories fail.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Amen Robert, well said!

                        As Amber Lynne would say "I love you best today"...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Thanks for the replys

                          I understand all the points that are being made, one thing that i do want to point out is that the verses used as evidence for the rapture,

                          1 Thessalonians 4:15–17
                          John 14:2–3
                          Philippians 3:20-21
                          1 Corinthians 15:49–55
                          2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
                          Matthew 24:36-41

                          can be easily applied to the second coming at the end of the tribulations, as for comments like Why would Jesus call his people up to meet him in the air when He, Himself is returning to Earth at the same time? i dont know maybe that just how he want things done, my point is that we can't know for sure. The only reason i am even having small doubts is because the foundations for this teaching of the rapture are weak, It came from John Darby and Mary Macdonald.

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                          • #43
                            What I learned

                            Before I became a christian I did a lot of reading in the Bible. Most times I was unsure why I read so much. I read a lot in the OT and as I got older I read Hal Lindsey's THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH,I was hooked on prophsey.Read Revelation next then the Prophets and Paul's letters. Came to my own conclusion on the rapture it comes first then the Tribulation. I never heard of Darby,or any other kind of rapture.Then about fifteen years ago I had a "discussion" with some people about the fast approaching rapture.I learned that there are as many ideas about what will happen as there are people. I have never changed my mind about the rapture and see no reason to start accepting what to me are wrong headed ideas.

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                            • #44
                              RVIDES, I guess what is confusing me is that the teaching of the rapture didn't just start with Darby, the teachings were there all along in God's Word from the beginning of time, it may have taken man a long time to understand the scriptures, but the teaching itself has been around since the beginning of God's Word. Man can be bit slow on the up-take...lol

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The only problem is: Revelation 4:4 CANNOT be applied to the second coming, because they are in heaven with the Lord LONG before the Second Coming. And as I have shown, the elders with the crowns are the church. That blows the pre-wrath, mid-trib and post trib rapture theories all out of the water.

                                And this was scripture LONG before Darby and MacDonald EVER came on the scene. Not to mention that the Church in the days of Paul expected the rapture to be soon, as Paul's writings indicated.

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