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~ Children In Heaven ~ 2 Cor 1:3-4

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  • To explain covenant teaching could take alot of time but I will try to do it without taking to much and hopefully shed some light on this discussion. In Jewish culture when 2 men went into a covenant that covenant lasted forever as long as no one broke the covenant. And the covenant was very serious. It was 2 people becoming one. It was a marriage. And a very important thing about a covenant is that all your children born and unborn were covered under this covenant until they came to an a time that they understood the covenant and could make a decsion for themselves if they wanted to stay in the covenant.

    We see this in a the Old Testament with David, Jonathon and Mephibosheth. David and Jonathon went into covenant together before Jonathon had children. Years later, after Jonathon is dead and David is king, David begins to search for any children Jonathon had. He finally finds Mephibosheth and brings him to the castle:

    6 When Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, came to David, he bowed down to pay him honor.
    David said, "Mephibosheth!"
    "Your servant," he replied.

    7 "Don't be afraid," David said to him, "for I will surely show you kindness for the sake of your father Jonathan. I will restore to you all the land that belonged to your grandfather Saul, and you will always eat at my table."

    You will notice that the kindness that David is showing to Mephibosheth had nothing to do with Mephibosheth or anything he had ever done. It had to do with the covenant between David and Jonathon. It had to do with provision that was made before he was ever born. At this point Mephibosheth now has to decide if he wants to stay in the covenant.

    When Jesus died and was resurrected, God The Father and God The Son made a covenant. In fact we see this more fully when we see that the final act in the covenant ritual was taking bread and wine and saying this is my body and my blood, take me into you. The Lord's supper was Jesus trying to show us that He was making a new covenant. And since God will never be unfaithful to God, this covenant is everlasting. All we get to do is participate. And since Jesus took everyone who has ever existed into Himself on the cross everyone is covered under the covenant until such a time as they come to understand the covenant and make a decision as to wether to stay in it. So children who have not reached a time of understanding or an age of accountability if you will, are covered under the covenant and will make the rapture. For it has nothing to do with them or us or anything we have done. Provision was made for them and us 2000 years ago.

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    • I wasn't sure whether to post this in this thread or in the other children rapture thread that was linked to earlier. I chose this one since it is the newer thread.

      Anyway, I noticed in several places in both of these threads that some people have said they have no idea where the idea of 20 being a potential for the age of accountability comes from. It comes from the wilderness wanderings. When Israel was forced to wander in the wilderness for ~40 years because of their unbelief and lack of faith to enter the land, only those that were over the age of 20 (except Joshua and Caleb) died during these 40 years. Those that were under the age of 20 were not held accountable for the sin of unbelief of their parents. That is where this age comes from.

      Chuck Missler has said on numerous occasions that he thinks that the age of accountability may be much older than most people realize/think (i.e. around 20.) There is also a verse from Romans (I believe?) by Paul talking about the fact that he wasn't condemned until a certain time, then he was condemned by the law, and then he was saved from condemnation by grace through his faith in Christ. When he refers to the first period when he wasn't condemned, it is commonly believed that he is referring to the time when he was below the age of accountability. There are other references too...I'll look them up a bit later when I get a chance.

      I know I'm not commenting directly on the point brought up in the OP, but I just felt I should post this since I saw so many people commenting about not knowing where the 20-year-old possibility comes from.

      Anyway...

      Kknight

      Comment


      • OK, I ran and looked up a couple of the references:

        2 Samuel 12:22-23 David is fasting and begging God to spare the life of his newborn son whom God has told him will die because of his sin with Bathsheba. His servants were so worried about his condition that they were afraid to tell him when his son died. But when he finds out, he washes up, changes his clothes, and sits down to eat. His servants are obviously surprised by the fact that he was so saddened while his son was alive, but is now "back to normal" now that his son is dead. Why isn't he more bothered by the fact that his son is dead? He points out that while the child was yet alive and still sick, he fasted and prayed because he thought that maybe God might have mercy and spare his life...but now that the child had died, there was nothing he could do about it. Can he bring his child back from the dead? He says I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Note what is going on here! David is not bothered by his son's death because he KNOWS that his son is in heaven and he will see him again when he goes there. This is a very strong support for "unaccountable" children going to heaven.

        Romans 7:9 (but go read the whole chapter in context) is the passage where Paul says "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Again, what is being said here? There was a period in Paul's life when he was alive "without the law once." About the only thing that he can be referring to here is his life as a child before the "age of accountability." I'm not aware of any other interpretations of this passage that make any sense.

        Finally, Numbers 14:29 and Deuteronomy 1:39 are the verses that refer to the fact that only those "twenty years old and upward" were slain in the wilderness for their sin of unbelief. In other words, those that were 19 years old and younger were not held accountable for the sins of their parents because they "in that day had no knowledge between good and evil" (Deut 1:39.)

        Hope that helps!

        Kknight

        Comment


        • It is also like with us. (adults). God does not hold us accountable if we DO NOT know its a sin. If we do not know, then we can not be held accountable, BUT once we know then we are held accountable for that sin. This is where we grow and mature. Too much is given, much is required. the more we know the more we are held accountable.

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          • And by the way Kknight great post.

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            • Originally posted by Jack View Post
              When the Rapture happens we know true believing Christians will be taken to be with Christ and our children (under the age of accountability) for they were made Holy through our faith. But as for the unbelieving parents there children are not sanctified. What will happen to these aborted babies and children? God does not tell us...
              Actually, He does. Jesus said specifically that His 'revealing' would be identical to the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:26-30). Everyone was going about their business when destruction came suddenly.

              In both instances, the children of the saved were spared. The children of the unsaved perished with their parents...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jack View Post
                did he do this with Noah? Lot? Jericho? God is not cruel, all I am saying is that scripture does not back what you are saying. When we get there than we will know. I am not saying these babies are going to hell. I don't know what he will do, but what ever he does do, it is good. But I will not teach what he has not taught. I will NOT add to His Word. Amen
                Scripture doesn't specify what happens to children after they die, but it seems to me that the whole idea of salvation and acceptance of grace is dependent upon the person making the CHOICE to do so.

                What I mean is...believers understand that they are sinners and have accepted the Lord's grace and forgiveness. Children below a certain stage of development are simply incapable of understanding such a choice. I for one do not believe that the Lord would condemn innocent children to hell solely because they didn't know how to accept grace and forgiveness. This would be like punishing a baby for spilling food on the floor simply because the baby didn't know how to keep it on the table.

                Now, I could of course be wrong about this, but I feel that if the Lord loved us so much that He was willing to die for us, He would also be able to tell the difference between those who actually reject him and those who are not capable of understanding. Are we to assume that retarded or mentally damaged people are condemned because they are unable to understand the Lord's sacrifice? That just doesn't sound like the Lord I love.

                I do not believe that children of unbelievers will be raptured, but I also don't think they will be condemned to hell (assuming they die young) for a choice they didn't even make. During every person's lifetime, they have the opportunity to hear and understand what the Lord has done. If they reject it, then that is their choice. A three year old child cannot be held to the same standard of accountability as a twelve year old and I believe the Lord understands this and has planned for it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kknight View Post
                  OK, I ran and looked up a couple of the references:

                  2 Samuel 12:22-23 David is fasting and begging God to spare the life of his newborn son whom God has told him will die because of his sin with Bathsheba. His servants were so worried about his condition that they were afraid to tell him when his son died. But when he finds out, he washes up, changes his clothes, and sits down to eat. His servants are obviously surprised by the fact that he was so saddened while his son was alive, but is now "back to normal" now that his son is dead. Why isn't he more bothered by the fact that his son is dead? He points out that while the child was yet alive and still sick, he fasted and prayed because he thought that maybe God might have mercy and spare his life...but now that the child had died, there was nothing he could do about it. Can he bring his child back from the dead? He says I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Note what is going on here! David is not bothered by his son's death because he KNOWS that his son is in heaven and he will see him again when he goes there. This is a very strong support for "unaccountable" children going to heaven.

                  Romans 7:9 (but go read the whole chapter in context) is the passage where Paul says "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Again, what is being said here? There was a period in Paul's life when he was alive "without the law once." About the only thing that he can be referring to here is his life as a child before the "age of accountability." I'm not aware of any other interpretations of this passage that make any sense.

                  Finally, Numbers 14:29 and Deuteronomy 1:39 are the verses that refer to the fact that only those "twenty years old and upward" were slain in the wilderness for their sin of unbelief. In other words, those that were 19 years old and younger were not held accountable for the sins of their parents because they "in that day had no knowledge between good and evil" (Deut 1:39.)

                  Hope that helps!

                  Kknight
                  Say it again.......

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pagemistress View Post
                    Scripture doesn't specify what happens to children after they die, but it seems to me that the whole idea of salvation and acceptance of grace is dependent upon the person making the CHOICE to do so.

                    What I mean is...believers understand that they are sinners and have accepted the Lord's grace and forgiveness. Children below a certain stage of development are simply incapable of understanding such a choice. I for one do not believe that the Lord would condemn innocent children to hell solely because they didn't know how to accept grace and forgiveness. This would be like punishing a baby for spilling food on the floor simply because the baby didn't know how to keep it on the table.

                    Now, I could of course be wrong about this, but I feel that if the Lord loved us so much that He was willing to die for us, He would also be able to tell the difference between those who actually reject him and those who are not capable of understanding. Are we to assume that retarded or mentally damaged people are condemned because they are unable to understand the Lord's sacrifice? That just doesn't sound like the Lord I love.

                    I do not believe that children of unbelievers will be raptured, but I also don't think they will be condemned to hell (assuming they die young) for a choice they didn't even make. During every person's lifetime, they have the opportunity to hear and understand what the Lord has done. If they reject it, then that is their choice. A three year old child cannot be held to the same standard of accountability as a twelve year old and I believe the Lord understands this and has planned for it.
                    but yet you still condemn the baby, child???? for the rapture??? once again the baby suffers cuz it can not decide for their self???? That this child thats God loves so much will go thru thr wrath?? Remember God Holds a Special place in His heart for children. How plainier can that be. SPECIAL, means gets special privileges. VIP PASS


                    [I]spe·cial (spĕsh'əl) .
                    Surpassing what is common or usual; exceptional: a special occasion; a special treat.

                    I]


                    http://www.answers.com/special
                    Last edited by Butterflykisses; November 30th, 2007, 12:23 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Butterflykisses View Post
                      but yet you still condemn the baby, child???? for the rapture??? once again the baby suffers cuz it can not decide for their self????
                      "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18 KJV)

                      We're condemned the moment we're born. It's that 'original sin' thing. Unless justified by a believing parent a child isn't saved. What?!? You want God to grade on a curve?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Keifer View Post
                        "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18 KJV)

                        We're condemned the moment we're born. It's that 'original sin' thing. Unless justified by a believing parent a child isn't saved. What?!? You want God to grade on a curve?

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                        • http://www.raptureready.com/terry/children-rapture.html Please read the whole thing........

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                          • Special adj. unusual, exceptional, unique; specific, particular; limited; highly valued
                            Fixed and distinct from others: express, particular, set1, specific. See specific/general.

                            http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search...searchtype=any
                            http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search...searchtype=any

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                            • why argue about something we don't know the answer to? Why not just teach the truth which is we don't know the answer to this question, it's in God's hands and He'll act according to His will....that's the truth, everything else is speculation and just because some teacher or another has decided it's one way or the other doesn't make it true, only scripture is true....

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                              • Originally posted by dramama View Post
                                Scripture is silent about this, but you have just opened on of the biggest can of worms on this board....good luck!!!

                                ROGER THAT

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