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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hill Top
    Do you think God is blind to a man who claims to be a believer but murders somebody?
    Hi Hill Top, I will try to make a case on how a believer may sin, even after being baptized.

    It is possible for a born-again believer who has been baptized to murder somebody. For example, the Bible says in 1 John 3:15 "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.".

    I was driving recently and someone was going too slowly for my liking. I found myself hating that person. I didn't even know the person, but I had hatred in my heart. It could have been a Christian brother, I don't know, but this is an example of how, because I had hatred in my heart, I can murder, even as a believer (who has been baptized, although that doesn't change me - read on for why).

    I am not saying that God is blind to this sin. But it is very easy to fall into temptation, even after we are baptized.

    I noticed these questions you asked earlier were never directly answered.

    Originally posted by Hill Top
    How does one crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts, without baptism? (Gal 5:24)
    We don't crucify our flesh, the Holy Spirit does. Sometimes it is a gradual cleaning-up, and sometimes it is an instantaneous cleaning. At the point of salvation (admitting you are a sinner, accepting Christ's atoning death, and surrendering to the LORD), many have experienced instantly being cleansed from certain fleshly desires, such as being set free from drug addiction, alcoholism, smoking, pornography, etc. This happened before the actual water baptism.

    Originally posted by Hill Top
    How is the cleansing blood of Christ applied to you, without baptism?
    And the cleansing blood of Christ is applied at the point of salvation, in a spiritual cleansing, again, before being water baptized. Ephesians 2:13: "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."


    And here is a question. Let's assume, for this example, that you are correct, and that baptism gives a person the power to live a sinless life, all the way until they die. If this is true, then why are there not a great many people running around who are free from sin and leading perfect lives, loving God, loving others, and living out God's word for all to see? Shouldn't there be many people around us who are evidence that your theory is correct?

    Another question. You say it is possible to live in victory over sin after water baptism. But, what happens if that baptized person somehow does sin? Does that mean that person was never saved? I imagine it might be a highly stressful thing for a person to be living a 'perfect' life, and to have to make sure they continue to live this perfect sinless life. Wouldn't they have a fear of messing up and sinning accidentally? Also, some sins are unintentional. Are you saying this person would never commit even unintentional sins?
    "Therefore my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable,
    always abounding in the work of the Lord;
    knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

    1 Corinthians 15:58 (ESV)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Hill Top
      Wow, I can't believe I just read that!
      The very definition of sin is disobedience to God.

      And since Romans 3:23 states "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Emphasis mine) then that includes you too.

      The flesh is enmity with God, and it is corrupt and sinful and no one ever, since Adam has been able, even if very willing, to remain obedient to God.

      Romans 8:7 states more or less the same thing.

      Neither you nor I, nor any other human being has a spiritual mind and body, only the carnal ones until the rapture or death, whichever comes first

      We are corrupt and totally incapable of being obedient to God, so why do you think you can be such, when it took God to step out of eternity, walk among us in the flesh, and go to the cross to correct the issue?

      Originally posted by Hill Top
      Do you think God is blind to a man who claims to be a believer but murders somebody?
      Is God's imputation still in effect?
      God can't lie, so a murderer will never be called righteous.
      We can see your problem here, clearly you don't believe that Jesus paid the price for all sin, only some are paid for?

      So what about the sinners mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Corinthians 6:10, do these people get refused the righteousness too or is it only murderer's who get refused it?

      Romans 10:13 clearly states that 'Whosoever call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

      That includes every single living person on this planet today, including murderer's who truly repent, and genuinely turn to Christ for redemption and forgiveness. So, you are completely mistaken to condemn a group of people as unable to achieve righteousness through Christ because they have a sin that Jesus didn't pay the price for.

      Jesus death, shed blood and resurrection paid the price for every sin, past, present and future, no matter what it was, otherwise He would not have uttered the word 'tetelestai', that is to say 'it is finished, all debts are paid' as His last word on the cross before expiring.

      Moses was a murderer, and Paul was even worse, he was a mass murderer before his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

      By your measure, these two are not righteous, can't be called righteous and are now in hell?

      You seem to be a little confused about salvation and the fact that the only human involvement in it is to humble themselves, throw themselves at the foot of the cross, repent of their sin, and accept that free gift of eternal life granted graciously to us by God in person.

      Stop trying to 'work your ticket' to heaven, it won't get you anywhere.

      As has been pointed out to you many times already, salvation is granted to us by the works of cross and nothing else, if you/we add anything else into the situation like obedience, water baptism and any other old thing mankind would like to add, then we have no salvation at all.



      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hill Top
        I have nothing but regret for my former life prior too my rebirth.
        But your scripture doesn't say we will always be sinners.
        God has offered us the gift of repentance from sin. We CAN turn from it.


        You are correct about the "flesh", but had you read on to verse 9 & 10, you would have seen..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
        And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."


        Romans 3:25 says..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
        It is ONLY past sins that are remitted at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)


        All workers of iniquity will be paid the final wages for their wickedness.
        These Corinthians are being given the chance to amend their ways.
        Those who do will be counted worthy on the last day.


        Yes, and that "calling" is done, as Paul was exhorted in Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."


        The key?
        As you cited..."who truly repent, and genuinely turn to Christ for redemption and forgiveness"
        False repenters are only fooling themselves.


        Moses' murder was pre Law.
        Paul's, pre-conversion.
        Moses was denied the promised land because he sinned again.
        Do you think your future will differ from his?
        Paul didn't sin again after his conversion, or he wouldn't ever have written verses like..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
        And..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)


        I "humbled myself" to those "works", and to baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of my past sins too.
        Why delineate one duty above another?


        That is counter to your last paragraph, where you wrote we must.."humble themselves, throw themselves at the foot of the cross, repent of their sin, and accept that free gift of eternal life"
        You espouse two doctrines at one time.?

        If God is your master, don't you think you should obey Him?
        If you persist in refusing to admit that salvation is obtained only by Christ and Him alone, then you are what is called lost and that is a terrible position to be in when Jesus returns for His bride as you will be left behind at the rapture, or refused entry to the kingdom upon your demise.

        Further, it may very well result in the mods on the board here suspending your posting rights as this is a pre-trib, OSAS believing space. You clearly donít stand with the majority who reside here.

        Try as you might, and you seem convinced that you are and can, be obedient to God, you will not be since you cannot and neither can anyone else achieve such an exalted position with God while still in the flesh.

        I am done with you, all the correct points that you needed pointing out, have been, and so itís now over to you whether you want 100% salvation in Christ, or none at all by your own boastful means.

        This is the last response from me to you on these matters, the issues have been discussed and clear examples have been given by many and various posters, myself included, as to your incorrect version of obtaining and keeping your salvation.

        Comment


        • #19
          We'll never stop sinning as long as we inhabit corrupt flesh. Romans 7:15-20.
          sigpic
          Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

          John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

          Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


          Comment


          • #20
            Q

            I was having a discussion with someone who believes that when you are born again, God only forgives you for your past sins before you were born again and not your future sins. Is there a scripture that says or implies specifically that Jesus died for our future sins after being born again?

            A

            There are several.

            In Colossians 2:13Paul wrote, ďHe forgave us all our sinsĒ. The Greek word translated ďallĒ means each and every, any and all. That means when we are born again all our past, present, and future sins are forgiven.

            In Ephesians 1:13-14 he said our salvation was guaranteed from the time we believed. How could he have said that unless our future sins had been forgiven as well as our past ones? He said essentially the same thing in 2 Cor. 1:21-22, 2 Cor. 5:5 and Ephesians 4:30.

            In Hebrews 10:14 the writer said, ďBecause by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.Ē How could God see us as perfect forever unless all our sins had been forgiven?

            Had this not been the case, everyone who has been saved would have to remain absolutely sin free for the rest of his or her life. That means we would become responsible for keeping ourselves saved. This is a violation of Ephesians 2:8-9which says weíre saved by grace and not by works, lest anyone should boast. Certainly those who were able to remain sin free for the rest of their lives would have something to boast about.

            The fact is, remaining sin free is humanly impossible by Godís standards, because to do so we would have to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect (Matt. 5:48). Since we canít be as perfect as God is, we would all have been lost again within a short time, and the Lordís death would have amounted to nothing.

            To prevent this, God imputed to us a righteous equal to His own. We canít earn this righteousness by trying to be perfect. It comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24). He is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he is at the right hand of God and is always interceding for us (Romans 8:33-34, Hebr. 7:25).
            https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...ust-past-sins/
            sigpic
            Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

            John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

            Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


            Comment


            • #21
              When we accept Christ alone for our salvation and are "in Him", we "put on" His righteousness.........we wear HIM as our spotless robe. When God then looks at us, from that time on, He sees the righteousness of Jesus in us.....NOT our own righteousness. We are incapable of being righteous in this sinful world and with our human limitations. Yes, we try to show our love and devotion by living as God would have us to do. But, we will never attain perfection in that endeavor, and nor does that affect our worthiness to be saved, and called the Sons of God.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Hill Top

                The implication of your post is that the reborn man is no different than the old man who was a servant of sin.
                Were that true, what was the point of rebirth?
                Thankfully, we can maintain that we are no longer of Adamic seed after our regeneration.
                We are of Godly seed that cannot bear devilish fruit.
                OK, we're done here.
                sigpic
                Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by kathymendel View Post
                  When we accept Christ alone for our salvation and are "in Him", we "put on" His righteousness.........we wear HIM as our spotless robe. When God then looks at us, from that time on, He sees the righteousness of Jesus in us.....NOT our own righteousness. We are incapable of being righteous in this sinful world and with our human limitations. Yes, we try to show our love and devotion by living as God would have us to do. But, we will never attain perfection in that endeavor, and nor does that affect our worthiness to be saved, and called the Sons of God.
                  Exactly.
                  Well said.

                  Comment

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