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The Shroud of Turin: Is it Authentic?

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  • Originally posted by christschild View Post
    I'm not sure if it is the burial shroud or not but I do believe that in the last days we will see signs and wonders. I don't need any proof of who Jesus is but if more archialogical evidence brings some to Christ then that would be a good thing. For instance finding the Arc of the Covenant or Noah's arc. I know we are finding more and more evidence all the time to support the truth of the Bible.
    That's my position in a nutshell.

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    • Originally posted by House of Light View Post
      That doesn't make the shroud of turin authentic. It doesn't prove anything, other than Christ was wrapped.....with linen.
      I'd posted that as a response to Buzzardhut's prior post, not because I was using it for proof of authenticity.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Woody View Post
        I'd posted that as a response to Buzzardhut's prior post, not because I was using it for proof of authenticity.
        Shrouders say the power of the resurrection made the image
        Jesus was not resurrected during His crucifixion, a cloth over His head during the crucifixion cannot be proven
        The hole you are digging is getting deeper and deeper



        Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
        Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
        Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

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        • The purpose of John 20 is to show that Jesus appeared TO HIS OWN not unbelievers, because Jesus Himself stated that even if someone were to return from the dead they would not be convinced, the people were blinded by the god of this world. Jesus did not appear to unbelievers, He appeared to His own as evidence of His resurrection and to confirm belief in the living Christ, those appearances were so profound it turned his disciples into bold witnesses unto death. That is the reason the graves clothes are mentioned, it contrasted Lazarus' resurrection, as Christ was able to pass through His graves clothes as He did through walls when He appeared to them and revealed His wounds to Thomas. If Jesus did not resurrect and appear to UNBELIEVERS, He is not going to leave a "relic" behind to be venerated and made an idol-this goes counter to the very central message of the Gospel and God's character. As Hebrew states repeatedly, it is by FAITH that we are saved and by FAITH did the OT saints obtain a good testimony.

          Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

          All of Hebrews 11's message is "faith".

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Woody View Post
            [snip]
            I don't mean to say that Jesus' incarnation 'looks' just like God in heaven. I mean that God allowed his deity to be represented by AN image. Regardless of its qualities. That's all. So he would not have issues with people taking a photograph of it. An image is an image is an image, 3-D or otherwise.

            I'm not sure how to say this without perhaps insulting you, but I am getting tired of your equating Jesus - God in living flesh - as just an image of God. He IS God - one aspect of Him, anyway. Comparing Jesus (God) to an inaminate object is disgusting to me.

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            • Originally posted by Woody View Post
              I don't mean to say that Jesus' incarnation 'looks' just like God in heaven. I mean that God allowed his deity to be represented by AN image. Regardless of its qualities. That's all. So he would not have issues with people taking a photograph of it. An image is an image is an image, 3-D or otherwise.
              I disagree. I think you are making this point to put the Shroud on equal ground as the Incarnation. ...an image is an image is an image?!!?

              Woody, in all honesty, if you left me with the Shroud for 5 minutes, I'd burn it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Woody View Post
                I don't mean to say that Jesus' incarnation 'looks' just like God in heaven. I mean that God allowed his deity to be represented by AN image. Regardless of its qualities. That's all. So he would not have issues with people taking a photograph of it. An image is an image is an image, 3-D or otherwise.
                God would never allow himself to represented by an image
                Jesus Christ was the Word made flesh....NOT THE WORD MADE IMAGE.

                This is exactly the twisted thinking that allows objects to become worshipped and venerated.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Woody View Post
                  I'll address them. I don't have time to cite sources but like i said, you can google stuff yourself:

                  2. In John 20:5-7 we find there was a separate piece wrapped around Christ's head. Yet the Shroud of Turin depicts a face on the sheet.

                  It was customary to put a cloth over the head of the crucified person while he was being crucified. Jesus was crucified with a cloth over his head, as any other Jew would have been. It would have been removed in the tomb before the body would be wrapped in the burial shroud.

                  3. The size of the shroud is 14 feet 3 inches by 3 feet 7 inches (434 centimetres by 109 centimetres). But the Bible says linen strips bound Jesus, not an enormous cloth (see John 19:40).

                  The greek word translated as 'linen strips' in some versions is 'othonion,' a word which has multiple Strongs definitions, one of which is 'a piece of linen.'

                  4. The Bible is the authoritative record of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and the Bible mentions nothing of a shroud.

                  See '3.'


                  9. The verses that tell of Joseph of Arimathea's wrapping Jesus in linen cloth are Matthew 27:59, Mark 15:46, Luke 23:53, and John 19:40. Look in Vine's Expository Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, and the Ryrie Study Bible. They all tell us the Greek words used in Matthew, Mark, and Luke (entulisso and eneileo) mean “to roll in, wind in”, “to twist, to entwine”, “to enwrap”, “to wrap by winding tightly”.

                  [I]"to enwrap" will do quite nicely.[/I]

                  (continued) ..."But if they did mean a single sheet, then Matthew, Mark, and Luke would conflict with John 19:40, which is clearer by using the Greek word othonion, meaning “linen bandage” (Strong's concordance). If the Bible writers had meant a single linen sheet like the shroud, the word used should have been othone (a single linen cloth, a sail, or a sheet). From this, it seems that all four Gospel writers were telling us that normal long strips of linen covered Jesus."

                  See '3.'
                  All this being said... what if this piece of cloth was just a sheet ... a sheet to cover the spot where a body would be placed? hmmmm

                  Just a thought....

                  Comment


                  • Shroud of Turin...

                    Scientists have proved it's a fake and man-made.

                    http://us.mobile.reuters.com/m/FullA...5943HL20091005

                    Woohoo!!

                    Comment


                    • People who worship the shroud are no different than those who see Mary in a piece of toast. It's all idol worship. Worship Christ, the one who is RISEN!! He is not dead, He is not burned into a burial cloth, He is not in a smudgy stain on a window. He is ALIVE! Praise the Lord

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tres Wright View Post
                        People who worship the shroud are no different than those who see Mary in a piece of toast. It's all idol worship. Worship Christ, the one who is RISEN!! He is not dead, He is not burned into a burial cloth, He is not in a smudgy stain on a window. He is ALIVE! Praise the Lord
                        You mean..... Mary isn't in TOAST!!!?????!!!!!

                        Sheesh.......



                        Comment


                        • Researcher says text proves Shroud of Turin real

                          Intersting article.....
                          Researcher says text proves Shroud of Turin real

                          ROME – A Vatican researcher claims a nearly invisible text on the Shroud of Turin proves the authenticity of the artifact revered as Jesus' burial cloth.

                          The claim made in a new book by historian Barbara Frale drew immediate skepticism from some scientists, who maintain the shroud is a medieval forgery.

                          Frale, a researcher at the Vatican archives, said Friday that she used computers to enhance images of faintly written words in Greek, Latin and Aramaic scattered across the shroud.

                          She asserts the words include the name "Jesus Nazarene" in Greek, proving the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have labeled Jesus a Nazarene without referring to his divinity.

                          The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping out of nailed hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen fibers at the time of his resurrection.

                          The fragile artifact, owned by the Vatican, is kept locked in a special protective chamber in Turin's cathedral and is rarely shown.

                          Skeptics point out that radiocarbon dating conducted in 1988 determined it was made in the 13th or 14th century.

                          While faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them due to the test's results, Frale told The Associated Press.

                          But when she cut out the words from photos of the shroud and showed them to experts they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century — Jesus' time.

                          She believes the text was written on a document by a clerk and glued to the shroud over the face so the body could be identified by relatives and buried properly. Metals in the ink used at the time may have allowed the writing to transfer to the linen, Frale claimed.

                          Frale claimed the text also partially confirms the Gospels' account of Jesus' final moments. A fragment in Greek that can be read as "removed at the ninth hour" may refer to Christ's time of death reported in the holy texts, she said.

                          On an enhanced image studied by Frale, at least seven words can be seen, fragmented and scattered on and around Jesus' face, crisscrossing the cloth vertically and horizontally. One short sequence of Aramaic letters has not been translated. Another Latin fragment — "iber" — may refer to Emperor Tiberius, who reigned at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, Frale said.

                          "I tried to be objective and leave religious issue aside," Frale told The AP. "What I studied was an ancient document that certifies the execution of a man, in a specific time and place."

                          Frale is noted in Italy for her research on the medieval order of the Knights Templar and her discovery of unpublished documents on the group in the Vatican's archives.

                          Earlier this year she published a study claiming the Templars at one time had the shroud in their possession. That raised eyebrows because the order was abolished in the early 14th century and the shroud is first recorded in history around 1360 in the hands of a French knight.

                          But her latest book, titled "The Shroud of Jesus Nazarene" in Italian, raised even doubts among some experts.

                          "People work on grainy photos and think they see things," said Antonio Lombatti, a church historian who has written books about the shroud. "It's all the result of imagination and computer software."

                          Lombatti said that artifacts bearing Greek and Aramaic texts were found in Jewish burials from the first century, but the use of Latin is unheard of.

                          He also rejected the idea that authorities would officially return the body of a crucified man to relatives after filling out some paperwork. Victims of the most cruel punishment used by the Romans would usually be left on the cross or were disposed of in a dump to add to the execution's deterring effect.

                          Lombatti said "the message was that you won't even have a tomb to cry over."

                          Unusual sightings in the shroud are common and are often proved false, said Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia.

                          Garlaschelli recently led a team of experts that reproduced the shroud using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century, proof, they said, that it could have been made by a human hand in the Middle Ages.

                          Decades ago entire studies were published on coins that were purportedly seen on Jesus' closed eyes, but when high-definition images were taken during a 2002 restoration the artifacts were nowhere to be seen and the theory was dropped, Garlaschelli said.

                          He said any theory about ink and metals would have to checked by analysis of the shroud itself.
                          http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin
                          "The God of Angel armies is always by my side!"~Chris Tomlin

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                          • Researcher says text proves Shroud of Turin real

                            http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin

                            What do you think of that?

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                            • Comment


                              • Hm....not sure about that shroud..

                                There is so much deception going on, I'm not surprised people are uplifting this thing. No one attacks Muhammed or Buddha. Why our Jesus?

                                It's one of those things among dozens that I'll ask Jesus about when I get to Heaven: "So Jesus, whatever happened to your burial garbs when you were resurrected?"

                                Nowadays, when man comes up with some "breaking discovery," I try hard not to read into it, most of it is empty bias.

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