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10 Commandments in the Age of Grace

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  • #16
    Someone explained it to me this way: the commandments/laws are the bare minimum of what we must do in order to save ourselves. Since it is impossible for us to save ourselves (because we all sin everyday) God provided a way for man to show faith that a Savior would come through rituals and animal sacrifices. (The Bible discusses how various Old Testament saints had faith and it was accounted to them as righteousness)

    Now that the Savior has come, the law doesn't apply to Christians because we are under a new covenant. We are called to be holy as God is holy. Old covenant: don't do bad things and here are all the things that you do that are bad. New covenant: Be holy like God. That's a big step up.

    So we won't want to murder, worship idols, or commit adultery (as Hilltop mentioned above.) If we mess up and sin despite ourselves, God convicts us of our sin and continues to sanctify us, while Jesus's blood covers us. We show our faith in the finished work of Christ by not trying to keep the law. We know that we cannot save ourselves.

    But everyone not accepting of the new covenant of Jesus Christ will have to justify themselves under the law, and since no one can do that (other than Jesus) they will be held accountable for their trespasses under the law.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

      So we won't want to murder, worship idols, or commit adultery (as Hilltop mentioned above.) If we mess up and sin despite ourselves, .
      If "we don't want to...", we won't.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Hill Top View Post
        If "we don't want to...", we won't.
        Be careful there. Even if we can outwardly obey all the law, remember our God can see the innermost being. I break almost all the law on a daily basis. Whenever I put something earthly as more important than God, that's idolatry. Murder? According to Jesus if we call someone a fool in derision we're guilty of it. Adultery? Looking at another woman with lust in your heart checks that one off. And let's not even mention pride. I battle that one on a daily basis.

        And even Paul messed up.

        Romans 7:19-8:2 "For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. For I joyfyully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death."

        We won't be able to fully keep the law until we are removed from this fallen body in this fallen world.
        Last edited by ArkieTuzi; August 3rd, 2018, 11:58 AM. Reason: fix spelling

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

          Be careful there. Even if we can outwardly obey all the law, remember our God can see the innermost being. I break almost all the law on a daily basis. Whenever I put something earthly as more important than God, that's idolatry. Murder? According to Jesus if we call someone a fool in derision we're guilty of it. Adultery? Looking at another woman with lust in your heart checks that one off. And let's not even mention pride. I battle that one on a daily basis.
          Our victory over all that stuff has already been won, by Christ Jesus, who destroyed the works of the devil while in the flesh.
          We manifest Christ's life every time we reject the temptations brought against us.
          Thanks be to God !

          And even Paul messed up.
          Romans 7:19-8:2 "For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. For I joyfyully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death."
          The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
          The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (“that is, in my flesh”).
          And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
          we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
          Why would Paul still be subject to something he is free of?
          If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.

          We won't be able to fully keep the law until we are removed from this fallen body in this fallen world.
          Our "fallen body" was cast off when we underwent the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11)
          If you are waiting till the next world to start obeying God, it will be too late.

          BTW, the "law" we are to "fully keep" consists of...love God above all else and our neighbors as our selves.
          And He gives us everything we need to do it.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

            Be careful there.

            ...

            We won't be able to fully keep the law until we are removed from this fallen body in this fallen world.
            Obviously, I agree with you, but I have found
            that you cannot convince someone
            who is already convinced.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hill Top View Post
              Our victory over all that stuff has already been won, by Christ Jesus, who destroyed the works of the devil while in the flesh.
              We manifest Christ's life every time we reject the temptations brought against us.
              Thanks be to God !


              The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
              The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (“that is, in my flesh”).
              And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
              we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
              Why would Paul still be subject to something he is free of?
              If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.


              Our "fallen body" was cast off when we underwent the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11)
              If you are waiting till the next world to start obeying God, it will be too late.

              BTW, the "law" we are to "fully keep" consists of...love God above all else and our neighbors as our selves.
              And He gives us everything we need to do it.
              Is it really your contention that saved Christians never sin after receiving Christ, that sanctification is complete immediately, and that you personally, as a Christian, fully love God, as He deserves with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and that you love your neighbor as yourself at all times?

              Please answer, because that's really what it sounds like to me.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                Is it really your contention that saved Christians never sin after receiving Christ, that sanctification is complete immediately, and that you personally, as a Christian, fully love God, as He deserves with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and that you love your neighbor as yourself at all times?

                Please answer, because that's really what it sounds like to me.
                That is indeed my contention.
                Our rebirth is of God's seed, right?
                His seed cannot bring forth evil fruit.
                Our sanctification takes place when Jesus' cleansing blood is applied to the temple of the Holy Ghost, our bodies, when we are baptized into Christ's death.

                I personally love God above anything else this world has to offer...at all times.
                Don't you?

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                • #23
                  Needs to be worded differently.
                  Hill Top, do you believe you have been keeping the law since you have been saved?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TRex2 View Post
                    Needs to be worded differently.
                    Hill Top, do you believe you have been keeping the law since you have been saved?
                    You will need to be more precise with your concept of "law".
                    If you mean circumcision, dietary restrictions, feast keeping, stoning adulterers, days of atonements, and sabbath days...no.
                    If you mean love God above all else and my neighbor as my self...yes..
                    God has supplied the grace to accomplish His will.
                    Plus scriptures like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Hill Top View Post
                      Our victory over all that stuff has already been won, by Christ Jesus, who destroyed the works of the devil while in the flesh.
                      We manifest Christ's life every time we reject the temptations brought against us.
                      Thanks be to God !


                      The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
                      The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (“that is, in my flesh”).
                      And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
                      we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
                      Why would Paul still be subject to something he is free of?
                      If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.


                      Our "fallen body" was cast off when we underwent the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11)
                      If you are waiting till the next world to start obeying God, it will be too late.

                      BTW, the "law" we are to "fully keep" consists of...love God above all else and our neighbors as our selves.
                      And He gives us everything we need to do it.
                      I'm sorry. I can not accept your interpretation of these scriptures. In order to do that, one must specifically ignore all grammar/verb tenses.

                      When Paul speaks of previous times, he uses the past tense. All of the verses I quoted are in the present tense. "Wretched man that I am..." Not "wretched man that I was..." Paul is living as a Christian and his failures are current as well. Currently. But he is free from the law because he is in Christ. Currently.

                      Your interpretation also puts a lie to the verse Phil. 1:6 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." If sanctification is completed in full the moment we are saved, then there is nothing more to continue to perfect until the day of Christ Jesus.

                      Also, 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John uses the personal pronoun "we" and also the present tense. He includes himself. To say that John is unsaved at this point is ludicrous. To say that he is referring to sins before being saved implies that Christ's work on the cross is insufficient to cleanse him of his past sins.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                        I'm sorry. I can not accept your interpretation of these scriptures. In order to do that, one must specifically ignore all grammar/verb tenses.
                        When Paul speaks of previous times, he uses the past tense. All of the verses I quoted are in the present tense. "Wretched man that I am..." Not "wretched man that I was..." Paul is living as a Christian and his failures are current as well. Currently. But he is free from the law because he is in Christ. Currently.
                        Have you ever heard of the "present-historical" tense?
                        It is also called the "present narrative" tense.
                        Paul is speaking as if he were still in that past time, relating his past feelings and desires...and his defeats.
                        Romans 7 is a transition point between the death of the flesh, (Rom 6), and the life walked in the Spirit, (Rom 8).

                        Your interpretation also puts a lie to the verse Phil. 1:6 "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." If sanctification is completed in full the moment we are saved, then there is nothing more to continue to perfect until the day of Christ Jesus.
                        It may be easy for you to infer that the "good work" is our sanctification, but if that were true, we would still need the blood of Christ to be shed every time we got a little closer to consecration and atonement. (Sanctification)
                        Heb 10 says our sanctification is already complete...in verse 14.
                        I contend that the "good work" begun by God in the Philippians is their "fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now" (Phil 1:5)
                        BTW, the word you have listed as "perfect it" is "perform it" in my bible.

                        Also, 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John uses the personal pronoun "we" and also the present tense. He includes himself. To say that John is unsaved at this point is ludicrous. To say that he is referring to sins before being saved implies that Christ's work on the cross is insufficient to cleanse him of his past sins.
                        As you probably know, (At least I hope you know), John is writing about two different kinds of walk.
                        The walk in darkness/sin, and the walk in light/God.
                        It is those who walk in sin that cannot say they have no sin.
                        Those walking in God can say it.
                        There is no darkness in God, the light.

                        I pray in Jesus' name that your understanding of tenses doesn't prohibit you from living as God wills.

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                        • #27
                          I see those who have been convinced of their own self righteousness
                          will jump through grammatical hoops and twist Scriptural reasoning
                          into awesome pretzels to defend their point of view.

                          The reason I wanted to clarify the difference between "not sinning"
                          and "keeping the law" is Romans 7:1-6
                          And Galatians 3:1-14

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TRex2 View Post
                            I see those who have been convinced of their own self righteousness
                            will jump through grammatical hoops and twist Scriptural reasoning
                            into awesome pretzels to defend their point of view.

                            The reason I wanted to clarify the difference between "not sinning"
                            and "keeping the law" is Romans 7:1-6
                            And Galatians 3:1-14
                            Proverbs 16:18

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TRex2 View Post
                              I see those who have been convinced of their own self righteousness
                              will jump through grammatical hoops and twist Scriptural reasoning
                              into awesome pretzels to defend their point of view.
                              What of those whose righteousness is God given?

                              The reason I wanted to clarify the difference between "not sinning"
                              and "keeping the law" is Romans 7:1-6
                              And Galatians 3:1-14
                              Thank God we need not be "in the flesh" anymore !

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                                Proverbs 16:18
                                Agree.

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