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Doesn't John 3:5 require baptism for salvation?

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  • Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
    The very first thing that should happen in anyone's salvation is the Holy Spirit.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.got...ve-Holy-Spirit

    I'm trying to figure out what you mean by immersion into the word. I think your looking for signs of fruit. Are you trying to equate reading the Bible to you get saved by reading the Bible?
    I'm not sure why I can't seem to get my point written well enough for anybody to understand what I'm saying. This is not about receiving the Holy Spirit, or fruit, or getting saved by reading the Bible. Think about the act of baptism whiich we now associate with being immersed in water. It's a symbol, a relic of the jewish cleansing laws. Now think about immersing yourself into all of Christ's teachings and becoming more and more like Him, a true disciple, going through sanctification, learning all He taught as the apostles did before they were sent out to evangelize and minister to others. The baptism (same as immersion) which we are supposed to be participating in, as Christ commanded, this process of becoming more like Christ by being washed in the Word, learning it and letting it sanctify us, IS BAPTISM. Baptism (in this case) is not water. I'm saying we should remove the association of baptism and water, and realize the word baptism is about immersion and changing one's identity to be a true Child of God, a true follower of Christ. The scriptures above will hopefully come to light now about this. I hope I explained it better this time. I'm not saying we need anything but faith in Jesus for salvation. This is not about salvation, it's about the act of baptism after salvation and what people think it means vs what the scriptures are really saying. I'm saying if we were doing the command to be baptised correctly we would not be getting dunked in water, we would be allowing the Holy Spirit to train us in the teachings of Jesus which changes us and cleanses us.

    This quoted verse from your got questions article is a good example: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Paul is not saying when we get dunked in water we all are baptised into the Holy Spirit. He is saying that at salvation we receive the Holy Spirit, or are IMMERSED - IDENTITY CHANGED to being children of God rather than slaves to sin. This is proof that the word baptism is not how we think of it today. Immersion is to become fully involved, taken over by, our ownership has changed...

    Does that make sense? Hopefully

    Comment


    • Originally posted by triedbyfire View Post
      I'm not sure why I can't seem to get my point written well enough for anybody to understand what I'm saying. This is not about receiving the Holy Spirit, or fruit, or getting saved by reading the Bible. Think about the act of baptism whiich we now associate with being immersed in water. It's a symbol, a relic of the jewish cleansing laws. Now think about immersing yourself into all of Christ's teachings and becoming more and more like Him, a true disciple, going through sanctification, learning all He taught as the apostles did before they were sent out to evangelize and minister to others. The baptism (same as immersion) which we are supposed to be participating in, as Christ commanded, this process of becoming more like Christ by being washed in the Word, learning it and letting it sanctify us, IS BAPTISM. Baptism (in this case) is not water. I'm saying we should remove the association of baptism and water, and realize the word baptism is about immersion and changing one's identity to be a true Child of God, a true follower of Christ. The scriptures above will hopefully come to light now about this. I hope I explained it better this time. I'm not saying we need anything but faith in Jesus for salvation. This is not about salvation, it's about the act of baptism after salvation and what people think it means vs what the scriptures are really saying. I'm saying if we were doing the command to be baptised correctly we would not be getting dunked in water, we would be allowing the Holy Spirit to train us in the teachings of Jesus which changes us and cleanses us.

      This quoted verse from your got questions article is a good example: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Paul is not saying when we get dunked in water we all are baptised into the Holy Spirit. He is saying that at salvation we receive the Holy Spirit, or are IMMERSED - IDENTITY CHANGED to being children of God rather than slaves to sin. This is proof that the word baptism is not how we think of it today. Immersion is to become fully involved, taken over by, our ownership has changed...

      Does that make sense? Hopefully



      I understand what you are saying, but I think the Bible supports water baptism for Christians. For example, in Acts chapter 8, the eunuch gets baptized after he believes. I always just thought this water baptism was simply a form of obedience.

      But I think also, the baptism you describe of our identity being changed also applies. I think it can be both types?

      33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth."
      34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?"
      35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
      36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
      37
      38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
      39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
      "Therefore my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable,
      always abounding in the work of the Lord;
      knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

      1 Corinthians 15:58 (ESV)

      Comment


      • Jesus said born of water and the Spirit in John 3:5, not born of baptism and the Spirit. Jesus also connects living water with eternal life in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by triedbyfire View Post
          I'm not sure why I can't seem to get my point written well enough for anybody to understand what I'm saying. This is not about receiving the Holy Spirit, or fruit, or getting saved by reading the Bible. Think about the act of baptism whiich we now associate with being immersed in water. It's a symbol, a relic of the jewish cleansing laws. Now think about immersing yourself into all of Christ's teachings and becoming more and more like Him, a true disciple, going through sanctification, learning all He taught as the apostles did before they were sent out to evangelize and minister to others. The baptism (same as immersion) which we are supposed to be participating in, as Christ commanded, this process of becoming more like Christ by being washed in the Word, learning it and letting it sanctify us, IS BAPTISM. Baptism (in this case) is not water. I'm saying we should remove the association of baptism and water, and realize the word baptism is about immersion and changing one's identity to be a true Child of God, a true follower of Christ. The scriptures above will hopefully come to light now about this. I hope I explained it better this time. I'm not saying we need anything but faith in Jesus for salvation. This is not about salvation, it's about the act of baptism after salvation and what people think it means vs what the scriptures are really saying. I'm saying if we were doing the command to be baptised correctly we would not be getting dunked in water, we would be allowing the Holy Spirit to train us in the teachings of Jesus which changes us and cleanses us.

          This quoted verse from your got questions article is a good example: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Paul is not saying when we get dunked in water we all are baptised into the Holy Spirit. He is saying that at salvation we receive the Holy Spirit, or are IMMERSED - IDENTITY CHANGED to being children of God rather than slaves to sin. This is proof that the word baptism is not how we think of it today. Immersion is to become fully involved, taken over by, our ownership has changed...

          Does that make sense? Hopefully

          I'm sorry but I'm reading a lot of double talk in your post. Your saying it's not a salvation issue but the way you seem to use baptism means that I need to fully read the scriptures and become more Christ like. In all honesty I don't like the terminology of "becoming more Christ like" because we won't achieve that ever on our own. Christ didn't come here to show us how to achieve anything. He did what we never could do.

          Secondly, when we are saved it's an immediate process through the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 5:17

          We can dig up a lot of verses about grace through faith alone and none have the asterisk of baptise (read the word of God) and be more Christ like.

          We study to show ourselves workman approved and unashamed. 2 Timothy 2:15

          Thirdly the major double talk parts I see in your post come at the last part. If getting baptized in water was an absolutely heretical thing as you implied it would be clearly outlined as such much in the ways the Mark of the Beast and idolatry is.

          Seriously, if we have it all wrong then God wouldn't have had John the Baptist baptize Jesus. I am a fully purchased child of God. I don't think if the Spirit was leading someone to not be baptized I wouldn't question their salvation. If someone was baptized I wouldn't question their salvation.
          Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
            Baptism should be full immersion.

            Baptism is NOT a salvation issue.

            I went from being saved in November till 2 weeks ago being baptized without questioning my salvation on it. If the rapture would have happened I would have been gone.

            I did it as a testimony to the world. I did it with a church that understood it (in fact he never baptizes till someone approaches him and he makes sure you aren't doing it for "salvation").
            That is so awesome! Praise the Lord you were saved last November!

            I was saved when I was a youngster but I got physically Baptized in water when I was an adult. I know the physical Baptism was just a public proclamation of salvation but it was a glorious day for me. I remember crying with joy the entire time and I felt so honored and thankful to be saved.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mailmandan View Post
              Jesus said born of water and the Spirit in John 3:5, not born of baptism and the Spirit. Jesus also connects living water with eternal life in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39.
              Absolutely! He gives us living water. Nothing to do with H20. There are 2 schools of thought on the meaning of water and the spirit here on this verse. Some say water means physical birth but some say it is a transliteration, where one is supporting or connected with the other, like peanut butter and jelly, speaking of one sandwich having 2 elements to make it what it is. But I've never encountered any scholar who thinks this is baptismal water. That would be saying that we are saved by by baptism and Jesus would never say that.

              Originally posted by Firefly View Post
              I understand what you are saying, but I think the Bible supports water baptism for Christians. For example, in Acts chapter 8, the eunuch gets baptized after he believes. I always just thought this water baptism was simply a form of obedience.

              But I think also, the baptism you describe of our identity being changed also applies. I think it can be both types?
              The Eunuch was most likely an Ethiopian Jew. Like I said it was a holdover of Jewish cleansing rituals. As the Jews continued to deny Christ and the gentile Church got rolling there are less water baptisms and an emphasis, especially later with Paul, on teaching.

              Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
              I'm sorry but I'm reading a lot of double talk in your post. Your saying it's not a salvation issue but the way you seem to use baptism means that I need to fully read the scriptures and become more Christ like. In all honesty I don't like the terminology of "becoming more Christ like" because we won't achieve that ever on our own. Christ didn't come here to show us how to achieve anything. He did what we never could do.

              Secondly, when we are saved it's an immediate process through the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 5:17

              We can dig up a lot of verses about grace through faith alone and none have the asterisk of baptise (read the word of God) and be more Christ like.

              We study to show ourselves workman approved and unashamed. 2 Timothy 2:15

              Thirdly the major double talk parts I see in your post come at the last part. If getting baptized in water was an absolutely heretical thing as you implied it would be clearly outlined as such much in the ways the Mark of the Beast and idolatry is.

              Seriously, if we have it all wrong then God wouldn't have had John the Baptist baptize Jesus. I am a fully purchased child of God. I don't think if the Spirit was leading someone to not be baptized I wouldn't question their salvation. If someone was baptized I wouldn't question their salvation.
              It seems you might be stuck in the baptism= salvation groove and I've never indicated that anywhere in my comments. Of course I am saying we need to read our Bibles and become more Christ like. Not to be saved, but because we are saved and scripture tells us do that. The Holy Spirit will compel us to do that.

              Yes, salvation is immediate at the moment we believe on Him. But if we are truly saved we won't desire to go back to our previous way of living. We will desire to know God through His Word.

              Where did I say baptism in water is "absolutely heretical"? I think we have the wrong understanding of what it was supposed to be. Remember back in the 70s and 80s where almost all Christian churches taught tithing? Now no discerning Christian church teaches that because the ekklesia started studying. They found out they had misunderstood. They started holding their pastors accountable. They started becoming bereans.

              I explained above thayt John the baptist baptised Jesus to fulfill all righteousness. That verse is self explanatory. It was part of Jewish law. Jesus is also the High Priest. So that verse wouldn't apply to Christians.

              Again, nobody is questioning the salvation of a water baptised person, nor a person who hadn't been baptised. It would be helpful to keep ourselves out of that line of thought for this discussion. No double speak - I am being very straightforward.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by fl2007rn View Post
                That is so awesome! Praise the Lord you were saved last November!

                I was saved when I was a youngster but I got physically Baptized in water when I was an adult. I know the physical Baptism was just a public proclamation of salvation but it was a glorious day for me. I remember crying with joy the entire time and I felt so honored and thankful to be saved.
                Praise Jesus!

                My worldly baptism was awesome! Because once I realized the difference between baptism by the Holy Spirit and water I didn't push to have my children baptized. After I made arrangements with the pastor my daughter had asked if she could as well (I didn't even tell her I was getting mine done).

                Made it even more of a blessing!

                Originally posted by triedbyfire
                It seems you might be stuck in the baptism= salvation groove and I've never indicated that anywhere in my comments. Of course I am saying we need to read our Bibles and become more Christ like. Not to be saved, but because we are saved and scripture tells us do that. The Holy Spirit will compel us to do that.

                Yes, salvation is immediate at the moment we believe on Him. But if we are truly saved we won't desire to go back to our previous way of living. We will desire to know God through His Word.

                Where did I say baptism in water is "absolutely heretical"? I think we have the wrong understanding of what it was supposed to be. Remember back in the 70s and 80s where almost all Christian churches taught tithing? Now no discerning Christian church teaches that because the ekklesia started studying. They found out they had misunderstood. They started holding their pastors accountable. They started becoming bereans.

                I explained above thayt John the baptist baptised Jesus to fulfill all righteousness. That verse is self explanatory. It was part of Jewish law. Jesus is also the High Priest. So that verse wouldn't apply to Christians.

                Again, nobody is questioning the salvation of a water baptised person, nor a person who hadn't been baptised. It would be helpful to keep ourselves out of that line of thought for this discussion. No double speak - I am being very straightforward.
                I'm not stuck in that groove. I don't associate the two.

                If you want to keep out of that train of thought perhaps we should stop running around and try to make people think there is a huge misunderstanding about whether one should or shouldn't get baptized. If one understands it's not a salvation issue and they pray and are compled to do it or not do it then that should be the end of the discussion.
                Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                Comment


                • Our buddy Jack and some general comments:

                  https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...holy-spirit-2/

                  https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...for-salvation/

                  https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...for-salvation/

                  New posters: Please read this entire thread.
                  sigpic
                  Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                  John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                  Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
                    Praise Jesus!

                    My worldly baptism was awesome! Because once I realized the difference between baptism by the Holy Spirit and water I didn't push to have my children baptized. After I made arrangements with the pastor my daughter had asked if she could as well (I didn't even tell her I was getting mine done).

                    Made it even more of a blessing!



                    I'm not stuck in that groove. I don't associate the two.

                    If you want to keep out of that train of thought perhaps we should stop running around and try to make people think there is a huge misunderstanding about whether one should or shouldn't get baptized. If one understands it's not a salvation issue and they pray and are compled to do it or not do it then that should be the end of the discussion.

                    I never associated the two, you kept accusing me of associating them. I rejected that accusation by trying to point out that you were the only person who was bringing it up. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. The end of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned is God's Word. He gets to say what He wants. If we can be unconcerned about things that are not salvation issues then why is the rest of the Bible even given to us? For our edification of course. It is good for us to understand all that our Lord has shown us in His Word. It is for our benefit. If we emphasize something in the lives of others which is not helpful at the expense of missing something important which will be helpful, shouldn't we want to know and tell others? This is just a discussion. God's Word can sometimes cause tensions. But we all want to get to the same place here. We want to know God the way He wants to be known so we can follow Him and become who He wants us to be, by rightly dividing the Word of Truth. This is what is best for all of us. His Word is for our benefit. I don't know which nerve I touched but this does not have to be a contentious discussion. The Word of God, if we submit ourselves to Him, will set us all straight and make us mature. Perfection won't be reached this side of eternity but we should trust God's Word to do what He says it will do.

                    2 Timothy 3:16 All[g] Scripture is God-breathed[h], and profitable for teaching, for rebuking[i], for correcting[j], for training[k] in righteousness, 17 in order that the person of God may be complete[l], having been equipped for every good work.

                    Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                    Thanks Steve53! It sounds like your friend Jack is onto something... lol but I think I'm taking the subject a step further and saying that we should encourage each other to do what is helpful, rather than participate in rituals uncalled for in scripture which can be distracting and just make us feel good. This is evidenced by all of the people we've all seen baptised over the years who go right back to their old ways of living and might be false converts. Jesus' admonition in Matthew 28 to go make disciples, baptising them into the Name, through teaching them all He commanded, is better than the way we use water dunking now. A disciple is not the same as a "convert". We were never told to go and make converts. A true disciple will invest himself in God's Word. I am truly sorry if what I say offends, but I think scripture calls for us to be diligent when it comes to His Word. I genuinely do not understand why anyone would be offended by this. It's not about us.
                    Last edited by Steve53; March 12th, 2017, 08:36 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by triedbyfire
                      I never associated the two, you kept accusing me of associating them. I rejected that accusation by trying to point out that you were the only person who was bringing it up. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. The end of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned is God's Word. He gets to say what He wants. If we can be unconcerned about things that are not salvation issues then why is the rest of the Bible even given to us? For our edification of course. It is good for us to understand all that our Lord has shown us in His Word. It is for our benefit. If we emphasize something in the lives of others which is not helpful at the expense of missing something important which will be helpful, shouldn't we want to know and tell others? This is just a discussion. God's Word can sometimes cause tensions. But we all want to get to the same place here. We want to know God the way He wants to be known so we can follow Him and become who He wants us to be, by rightly dividing the Word of Truth. This is what is best for all of us. His Word is for our benefit. I don't know which nerve I touched but this does not have to be a contentious discussion. The Word of God, if we submit ourselves to Him, will set us all straight and make us mature. Perfection won't be reached this side of eternity but we should trust God's Word to do what He says it will do.

                      2 Timothy 3:16 All[g] Scripture is God-breathed[h], and profitable for teaching, for rebuking[i], for correcting[j], for training[k] in righteousness, 17 in order that the person of God may be complete[l], having been equipped for every good work.
                      Well if you can accept the fact that we won't be perfect on this side of eternity and the people who do use the word of God (by the way they are following it faithfully and as their final authority as well) that are getting baptized don't need to have your educated decision on this side of eternity where your opinion might be the wrong interpretation.

                      There's where my nerve is being stricken. Like Steve said go back and read through the thread. You'll see most of us do not know. We aren't going to bow down to ONE verse as a final authoritive on the matter and we are using the whole of the Bible to make as insightful decision with the Holy Spirit in a grey area.

                      This isn't like homosexuality where it's clearly outlined as a no no.

                      Or idolatry.

                      Or the Mark of the Beast.

                      Or many other issues.

                      Please go back and read through the thread.

                      Originally posted by triedbyfire View Post
                      Thanks Steve53! It sounds like your friend Jack is onto something... lol but I think I'm taking the subject a step further and saying that we should encourage each other to do what is helpful, rather than participate in rituals uncalled for in scripture which can be distracting and just make us feel good. This is evidenced by all of the people we've all seen baptised over the years who go right back to their old ways of living and might be false converts. Jesus' admonition in Matthew 28 to go make disciples, baptising them into the Name, through teaching them all He commanded, is better than the way we use water dunking now. A disciple is not the same as a "convert". We were never told to go and make converts. A true disciple will invest himself in God's Word. I am truly sorry if what I say offends, but I think scripture calls for us to be diligent when it comes to His Word. I genuinely do not understand why anyone would be offended by this. It's not about us.
                      Never mind. You apparently have all the answers and I won't continue with a vain and repetitious babbling discussion about this matter.

                      Have a blessed day.
                      Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by triedbyfire View Post
                        Absolutely! He gives us living water. Nothing to do with H20. There are 2 schools of thought on the meaning of water and the spirit here on this verse. Some say water means physical birth but some say it is a transliteration, where one is supporting or connected with the other, like peanut butter and jelly, speaking of one sandwich having 2 elements to make it what it is. But I've never encountered any scholar who thinks this is baptismal water. That would be saying that we are saved by by baptism and Jesus would never say that.
                        Amen! To automatically read baptism into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as "baptism," then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his Heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

                        Comment




                        • Without pointing fingers, it's obvious to this observer, that beyond any particular point of view, there is a fair share of misinterpretation going on between what's actually been said by some, versus what's being understood by others. And don't y'all think that's a tad bit ironic given the subject matter?

                          Brothers and Sisters, please, let's take a moment to read one another's comments a bit more carefully before responding.
                          sigpic
                          Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                          John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                          Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
                            Well if you can accept the fact that we won't be perfect on this side of eternity and the people who do use the word of God (by the way they are following it faithfully and as their final authority as well) that are getting baptized don't need to have your educated decision on this side of eternity where your opinion might be the wrong interpretation.

                            There's where my nerve is being stricken. Like Steve said go back and read through the thread. You'll see most of us do not know. We aren't going to bow down to ONE verse as a final authoritive on the matter and we are using the whole of the Bible to make as insightful decision with the Holy Spirit in a grey area.

                            This isn't like homosexuality where it's clearly outlined as a no no.

                            Or idolatry.

                            Or the Mark of the Beast.

                            Or many other issues.

                            Please go back and read through the thread.



                            Never mind. You apparently have all the answers and I won't continue with a vain and repetitious babbling discussion about this matter.

                            Have a blessed day.
                            I'm sorry you feel that way but its important to set the record straight. I've presented far more than "one verse" in context for this discussion and have far more to share but the thread has not moved onto anything deeper. We atre still struggling to deal with the little I've posted. I've been reading these threads for more than 10 years. I know the arguments and scripture on most Christian issues discussed here.{Mod Snip - See rule 10} God uses His Word to change our character and that is one of the reasons we should aggressively pursue context and undetstanding in our walk with Him.

                            Originally posted by Mailmandan View Post
                            Amen! To automatically read baptism into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as "baptism," then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his Heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
                            Thanks Mailmandan for bringing this up. You have been concise in your comments. Obviously I'm lacking in that skill, lol. The way you put it isn't half as confusing as the way I explain it.

                            Originally posted by Steve53 View Post


                            Without pointing fingers, it's obvious to this observer, that beyond any particular point of view, there is a fair share of misinterpretation going on between what's actually been said by some, versus what's being understood by others. And don't y'all think that's a tad bit ironic given the subject matter?

                            Brothers and Sisters, please, let's take a moment to read one another's comments a bit more carefully before responding.
                            Thanks for the reminder. Its easy to get drawn into the emotion rather than sticking to the verses. :

                            Originally posted by Kliska View Post
                            Wow... so all this time I thought it was grace that saved through faith. NOW I find out it is taking a bath in literal water...

                            Sorry, salvation hinges on a person trusting in Christ ALONE for salvation, to teach anything other than that is to teach a works based salvation (yes, getting dunked is a work)... I guess all the death bed converts are out of luck, as well as those that can't be baptized for various reasons, or those that die in the desert with no water, etc... etc... I guess it is a sad thing that WATER baptism is never listed as a requirement for salvation in the scriptures... and we only have man's opinion to go on.

                            And, it does indeed matter which denomination you subscribe too, as one can follow the path of this false teaching to its root. BTW, baptism is indeed necessary for salvation, just not the water baptism kind, and we don't have to work for it, God takes care of it for us upon us faithing on Christ. Good news; salvation is not by works lest any man should boast.
                            This post from pg 30 I think is along the same lines as my posts. I'm taking it a step further though. I'm wondering why we are encouraging each other, and being encouraged by pastors, to dunk each other in water which is not what scripture is calling for, gives people a false sense of security, and distracts us from the true baptism Jesus told us to go out and do in Mthw 28:19-20.

                            Originally posted by Kliska View Post
                            The same Guy Who efficaciously baptized the rest of us believers; God. (I know, the question was rhetorical, but it was too perfect to pass up )
                            This post, too.

                            Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
                            The very first thing that should happen in anyone's salvation is the Holy Spirit.

                            https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.got...ve-Holy-Spirit

                            I'm trying to figure out what you mean by immersion into the word. I think your looking for signs of fruit. Are you trying to equate reading the Bible to you get saved by reading the Bible?
                            Reading this again I think I know know how to answer more clearly. Water dunking is a work. That work shows the fruit in us of desiring to please God. But this work Jesus was telling us about in Matthew 28 was not one of water dunking, but of immersing yourself into learning scripture which comes from the fruit the Holy Spirit puts into us at salvation, which is the desire to know Him and do what pleases Him. How do we get to know Him and what pleases Him? Through His Word. We should, like Jesus, desire to "cleanse the temple". We should want to empty our churches of unhelpful and unscriptural ceremonies and teachings. Perhaps that analogy might be a bit inaccurate as the temple cleansing was about making a profit off of the things of God. But the ceremonial water dunkings are a huge distraction, misleading, and making people feel good about a lot of false conversions.
                            Last edited by Tall Timbers; March 13th, 2017, 03:47 PM.

                            Comment


                            • So, yes. Different kinds of baptisms. The water one is a show of faith. The one that matters happens by God's finished work and your faith in what He has done. You accept it or you don't.

                              We all understand a dunk in the water merits nothing in regards to salvation in Jesus Christ so much as it is an old tradition going back to the days of Christ with regards to believers as a show of their faith and devotion. Yes?

                              I think we're all on the same page here?

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                              • Originally posted by TimothyK View Post
                                So, yes. Different kinds of baptisms. The water one is a show of faith. The one that matters happens by God's finished work and your faith in what He has done. You accept it or you don't.

                                We all understand a dunk in the water merits nothing in regards to salvation in Jesus Christ so much as it is an old tradition going back to the days of Christ with regards to believers as a show of their faith and devotion. Yes?

                                I think we're all on the same page here?
                                On the above, yes indeed.

                                The newly invigorating topic at hand has more than a shadow of a legalistic bent and an uneasy feeling element of works present that goes way beyond the obvious symbolism of water being representative of birth.

                                Hopefully it is clear we're allowing this exploration a bit of latitude primarily because of simple curiosity - we've been teased there is more - inquiring minds would like to know the whole POV.
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                                Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                                John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                                Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


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