Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Who Are the "dead in Christ" who rise first?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Steve53 View Post


    One word -

    Dispensations.
    I was wondering which dispensation you put the tribulation into? Ryrie and Fruchenbaum put it at the end of the church age but treat it like it is still part of the same age.

    Some treat it like it is it's own dispensation.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ranman View Post
      I agree with that also,I just don't agree with salvation by grace thru faith being done away with. I am not alone, Arnold Fruchtenbaum says the same thing, and so does Charles C. Ryrie. Both the OT saints and the trib saints are saved by grace thru faith. As a matter of fact, both guys see the tribulation period as the end part of the gospel age and still connected with it.
      Romans 1
      17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
      Faith is what gave men of the OT certitude and fortitude to obey the law. Men live and do as they believe.

      Men can be given law, told to obey that law, and be judged by that law. It doesn't mean these same men agree that that law is good, or that that law is what they believe. When those men mixed the law telling them not to do this thing, with the agreement and understanding this thing is wrong, they then rightly mixed law and faith, which is what Israel was to do.

      It is the foundation of the simple statement of scripture regarding Abraham. “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

      Abraham believed God. Belief-Faith, intertwined and work together. We do this all the time in ordinary life. We don't believe its right to do this thing, so we tend to not do that thing, even if there is a law against that thing. It is our belief, our faith, what drives what we do. The just shall live by faith, this truth crosses all dispensations, but it is confined in context, we have the full revelation.

      Jesus Christ brought grace, so I'm not sure of your exact statement above, the NT does have fundamental differences.

      Originally posted by ranman View Post
      I was wondering which dispensation you put the tribulation into? Ryrie and Fruchenbaum put it at the end of the church age but treat it like it is still part of the same age.

      Some treat it like it is it's own dispensation.
      It has similarities with both ages, but it is a transition to the Kingdom Dispensation. The book of Acts of the Apostles is similar in that regard. I don't think its possible to state specifically it is a continuation of the church age, for the very reason the church is at that point sealed up.
      Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.

      Joel 3:2

      I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ranman View Post
        I was wondering which dispensation you put the tribulation into? Ryrie and Fruchenbaum put it at the end of the church age but treat it like it is still part of the same age.

        Some treat it like it is it's own dispensation.
        Originally posted by HeIsEnough View Post
        It has similarities with both ages, but it is a transition to the Kingdom Dispensation. The book of Acts of the Apostles is similar in that regard. I don't think its possible to state specifically it is a continuation of the church age, for the very reason the church is at that point sealed up.
        What HIE said.
        sigpic
        Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

        Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by ranman View Post
          I was wondering which dispensation you put the tribulation into? Ryrie and Fruchenbaum put it at the end of the church age but treat it like it is still part of the same age.

          Some treat it like it is it's own dispensation.
          I too have enormous respect for Ryrie and the Frucht even though there are some questionable things Fruchtenbaum has come up with.

          There are equally respectable Dispy scholars who disagree with the thought that the Trib is connected to the Church Age.

          When I get to my desktop I will try to post some info links but until then let's remember that the Church/(Age of Grace) was a mystery, a parenthesis in Israel's history.

          There she was going through her allotted 70 weeks of Daniel when at the end of the 69th week something extraordinary happens. And she is set aside, her history is on hold while the mystery of the Church unfolds.

          I believe Israel is due her last week, resuming where she left off. The Trib is also called the "70th week of Daniel" - fulfilling Israel's history, not the Gentiles' or the Church's. Israel was under the Dispensation of Law, so she will continue.

          I think it's clear by such things as God-sanctioned Temple sacrifices and the Sheep/Goats Judgment that the return to the Law will be in effect.

          And we should be very clear by now that we all believe salvation in any dispensation is by God's grace through faith so no issues there.

          But God has, in the different dispensations, different requirements re: the vehicle for one's faith.
          Last edited by iSong6:3; April 8th, 2012, 04:50 PM.
          "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


          Jesus + something = nothing

          Jesus + nothing = Everything

          Comment


          • 'K, due to copyright issues I can't even quote a sentence, but please read this: http://www.precepts.com/StudyMateria...ibulation.html

            It makes sense to me: Israel's history did not end yet. At the Rapture the second parenthesis is put in place, the Church Age is over (since the recipient of the specific promises is taken out) and Israel resumes her last seven years as she was, under the Dispensation of Law.

            This is something not essential doctrine but very interesting for many of us who love to think about such issues.
            "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


            Jesus + something = nothing

            Jesus + nothing = Everything

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jan51 View Post
              I believe in OSAS and I understand the difference between the dispensations, but I am not yet totally convinced one way or the other about if OSAS applies to the Old Testament/tribulation or not. My question is, how does II Peter 2:7-9 fit with having to keep your salvation by your works? Looking at what we know about Lot, he does not appear to be righteous. Why is he called righteous?

              2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
              2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
              2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
              One good thing about the Word of God is it never soft-soaps the personalities of the OT saints. They seem to have the same propensity to err in thier judgement that we do.

              To be fair to Lot, we must look at him through the lens of the OT setting his life existed in. We don't live in an age where we need to give a child of our own making to a dead brother under the levirite laws that existed then so as to not end his line of posterity. We look at Abraham as being guilty of incest for marrying his sister when the rule of not marrying close relations had not been given until the time of Moses.
              I only mean to say that since the Bible calls Lot righteous, we should accept it at face value as inspired scripture and not judge Lot thru a 21st century lense.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ranman View Post
                ...
                I only mean to say that since the Bible calls Lot righteous, we should accept it at face value as inspired scripture and not judge Lot thru a 21st century lense.


                If righteousness was attributed to Abraham for having enough faith in the Lord to leave his home ans set out for a new land that the Lord will show him then Lot should be accorded righteousness for doing the same thing.

                I agree that only the Lord knows the heart and thru the Holy Spirit Peter called Lot righteous.

                He did sin. He pitched his tents towards Sodom, he moved into Sodom, but he was grieved by their wickedness and sat in the gate possibly trying to help the situation.

                He did offer protection to righteous strangers which has foreshadowings of Tribulation acts of faith.

                Righteous Lot and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
                Righteous Noah and his household were offered a way out of destruction.

                We don't hear of the righteousness of any of their households in fact quite the opposite but being in the household of a righteous person seems to have its advantages.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RandallB View Post
                  Righteous Lot and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
                  Righteous Noah and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
                  Righteous Christians, those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, are also offered a way out of destruction. Maranatha!
                  Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.

                  Joel 3:2

                  I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by HeIsEnough View Post
                    Righteous Christians, those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, are also offered a way out of destruction. Maranatha!

                    Exactly!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by HeIsEnough View Post
                      Originally Posted by RandallB

                      Righteous Lot and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
                      Righteous Noah and his household were offered a way out of destruction.
                      Righteous Christians, those who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ, are also offered a way out of destruction. Maranatha!
                      Although I believe that Lot/Noah foreshadow the rightous Israel flight to Petra rather than the rapture.

                      But that seems to be the formula:

                      Righteousness avoids Lord's destruction.

                      Comment


                      • The Rapture of the church and tribulation saints.

                        For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

                        For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Thess 4:15,16


                        My question is how can the believers (dead and living) be resurrected before the tribulation, when more Christians are set to die? The word says the dead in Christ rise first, during the tribulation there are going to be Christians martyred for their faith:

                        Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:4

                        Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. rev.20:6

                        and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen Rev 1 5,6

                        Is the first resurrection is the same resurrection talked about in the main rapture verses?

                        Comment


                        • The dead in Christ that die first are all those members of the Body of Christ, also called the Bride of Christ, who have died before the Rapture happens, and does not include those who die during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation believers are not members of the Body of Christ, that privilege is reserved for those who believe during the Age of Grace alone. The tribulation believers who are killed for their faith during Daniels 70th week are the ones seen under the alter early in Revelation, who are told to wait until their number is complete.

                          Don't get these two groups of believers mixed up.

                          The Rapture is solely for the Bride of Christ, who are those believers dead and alive when Jesus comes to remove His Bride before Daniel's 70th week starts. This is the one that can is impending.

                          Those who believe during Daniel's 70th week have their own resurrection separate from ours.
                          sigpic
                          I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18

                          Comment


                          • This subject seems to confuse me a little. Does the Bride of Christ include OT Saints or is the Bride reserved for NT Saints only or both OT and NT Saints make up the Bride?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by yehoshua View Post
                              Is the first resurrection is the same resurrection talked about in the main rapture verses?
                              The First Resurrection has several 'phases'. Jesus' resurrection was the firstfruits of it.

                              Originally posted by PLN4287 View Post
                              Does the Bride of Christ include OT Saints or is the Bride reserved for NT Saints only or both OT and NT Saints make up the Bride?
                              The Bride are the NT saints. The OT saints are 'friends of the Groom'.
                              Last edited by Steve53; May 2nd, 2014, 06:19 PM.
                              The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
                              Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge.
                              (Psa 19:1b-2)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sandee View Post
                                The dead in Christ that die first are all those members of the Body of Christ, also called the Bride of Christ, who have died before the Rapture happens, and does not include those who die during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation believers are not members of the Body of Christ, that privilege is reserved for those who believe during the Age of Grace alone.
                                Thanks for your reply sister!

                                Take into consideration 1 Cor. 12:12-27, Ephesians 4:4-7 . The same spirit that dwells in us and sanctifies us and cleanses us, strengthens us, will be the same spirit in those tribulation believers, otherwise, their salvation is another type of salvation? Another function of the body of Christ is still the body is it not? This is where my confusion stems from.

                                Isn't Salvation a product of God's grace? Whether some one is saved early in life or late in life, are they not afforded God's grace to be saved? (take Jesus' parable of the vineyard workers for example) I understand the idea of the different dispensations of how God revealed himself to us. Such as through the law, and finally Christ Himself, but does that fact necessitate the idea of we being more privileged than the ones who choose to die in Christ than to receive the mark of the beast?


                                Originally posted by Sandee View Post
                                The tribulation believers who are killed for their faith during Daniels 70th week are the ones seen under the alter early in Revelation, who are told to wait until their number is complete.

                                Don't get these two groups of believers mixed up.

                                The Rapture is solely for the Bride of Christ, who are those believers dead and alive when Jesus comes to remove His Bride before Daniel's 70th week starts. This is the one that can is impending.

                                Those who believe during Daniel's 70th week have their own resurrection separate from ours.
                                I read Ephesians 5:27-33 and I read Heb. 10:12-17 and I have a hard time separating the two "groups" It just seems to go against these scriptures and the whole Idea of Christ and Salvation.

                                Take John 17:6-10, those people martyred for their faith in Christ are God's children, they are believers, part of the body of Christ. Part of the ones that are God's and are Jesus' and believed in the word that came to us through Jesus' testimony of the Truth. Revelation tells us they will be priests of God, reigning with Christ, just the same as us. (Rev. 1:4-6)

                                Are all these scriptures taken out of context on my part? Even if they do not get saved until the tribulation, don't the benefits of being saved apply to them? They are still washed clean of their sins, they are still in dwelt by the Holy Spirit, weren't they still chosen to believe in Christ from the foundation of the world? Was Jesus only talking about the believers that choose him in "The age of Grace" and not in the tribulation? Is (are) there a scripture reference(s) that separates the groups of believers?

                                Thanks for studying with me brothers and sisters in Christ! Grace mercy and Peace be with you until the coming of our LORD!!

                                Originally posted by Hootmon
                                The Bride are the NT saints. The OT saints are 'friends of the Groom'.
                                Read Hebrews "Hall of Faith" passage (Hebrews 11) This passage I think sums it up (Hebrews 11:13) and again (1 Pet. 2:11) Peter exhorts US as believers who have received the promises of God to be Pilgrims in this Earth.

                                The writer of Hebrews through the Holy Spirit puts believers in Christ on the same line of all the heroes of faith in the OT, and therefore part of the Body of Christ....

                                Originally posted by Hootmon View Post
                                The First Resurrection has several 'phases'. Jesus' resurrection was the firstfruits of it.
                                If it is several phases, how does that tie in with 1 Cor. 15:52? This imagery seems to suggest it does not happen in phases, but rather in a twinkling of an eye, one grand resurrection of believers. Have you any scripture that might clarify what the phases of the resurrection are?

                                Jesus' resurrection is the first fruits, that paved the way and gave us the opportunity to believe in him and be resurrected as well. Again, what are some scripture references we can look at to see if he paved the way for more than one resurrection and at different times for believers?
                                Last edited by Steve53; May 2nd, 2014, 06:20 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X