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  • #91
    Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
    Doubtful. Look to the rest of Rev. 20:14 ....This is the second death.

    The context doesn't allow for the meaning to imply two angelic beings.
    If you go back to Rev. 20:13, you will find that the unsaved dead are brought up from "death and hell" to be judged at the great white throne, which is only for those humans who were going to be cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Now "death" could be speaking of the unsaved body's resurrection to be joined again with the unsaved spirit (previously held in hell) which then is cast into the Lake of Fire.

    Being cast into the Lake of Fire is the second death as I understand it and I think it might apply to both humans and the bad angels for whom (the angels) the Lake was originally created to hold.

    An angelic being may not have died a physical death, but it seems that it could be said that he must have died to God in some manner when he became God's enemy as Satan did. His falling from his first estate could be said to be a form of death.

    The context might still allow two angelic beings to experience the second death in my opinion, which I also allow to be an incorrect speculation on my part.

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    • #92
      Also, the beast and the false prophet are cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:19-20, and the devil is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone in Revelation 20:10-15
      sigpic John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Love RR Family, Janice

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Clouds View Post
        Now "death" could be speaking of the unsaved body's resurrection to be joined again with the unsaved spirit (previously held in hell) which then is cast into the Lake of Fire.


        I think this is sort of right (if I'm understanding). Death refers to the body and hades the immaterial part of man (they are often personified and paired together, as in Rev 6:8, Hosea 13:14). Therefore, to say death and hades are put in the lake of fire is to say that both body and soul are punished there.


        Originally posted by Clouds View Post
        Being cast into the Lake of Fire is the second death as I understand it and I think it might apply to both humans and the bad angels for whom (the angels) the Lake was originally created to hold.

        An angelic being may not have died a physical death, but it seems that it could be said that he must have died to God in some manner when he became God's enemy as Satan did. His falling from his first estate could be said to be a form of death.

        The context might still allow two angelic beings to experience the second death in my opinion, which I also allow to be an incorrect speculation on my part.
        Although I disagree that death and hades refer to angels (I can't see why John would bring up the fact that two unknown angels would be put in gehenna at this point), if I were stating your case for you I wouldn't try to argue that angels undergo some kind of death. Gehenna is called the second death IMO only in relation to humans, since humans - unlike angels - undergo physical death where the soul separates from the body and also spiritual death where the soul is estranged from God forever. Angels can be placed in gehenna without having to undergo any sort of "death" since, IMO, it's only called the second death in relation to humans.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Clouds View Post
          Death speaks of a power that holds the body and Hell speaks of a power that holds the spirit and soul.

          In Revelation, Satan loses the keys of such power after he is cast down from Heaven. Even a regular angel can bind him later.
          I'm not really sure he loses this power when cast out of heaven for good. Christ takes the keys of death and hades (from Satan?) already in Rev 1:18, presumably meaning that believers were set free from this power which Satan had over them when Christ died and rose again. Unbelievers are still under Satan power in this regard and I can't really see why that'd come to and end in Rev 12.

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          • #95
            I read a Baptist book about the Rapture, and there was one section on hell in it, and it seemed to say there were different levels according to ones works here on earth in hell???

            I looked at the scripture they quoted, but I couldn't read 'that' into it.

            Has anyone heard of that before? Can anyone one find anything Biblical that could support that line of thinking?


            The are certainly degress of punishment in hell, if that's what you mean by "levels." Luke 12:47-48 is pretty clear on this.
            47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

            Sorry, I can't see that talking about hell and different levels.

            Any other scriptures that are more clearer in teaching that concept.

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            • #96
              It appears that a lot of thinking about "levels of hell" began with Dante's "Divine Comedy" (Inferno section). The poet is given a "tour" of hell with varying levels of punishment based upon the prevailing sin of the unbeliever. At the bottom were Judas and Brutus? in the jaws of the Devil. Some levels had ice, some whirling souls. There is a lot of Catholicism in this concept - and it's all fantasy. Personally, I believe that these silly concepts are also the basis for "jokes" about different punishments in hell: "OK, coffee break's over, back on your heads". That sort of thing.

              There's a lot of man's thinking and concepts of "just" punishment in this sort of thing. That's the problem with it. In moments of "righteous anger", I have fantasized about being able to operate the thermostat in hell (a truly bad joke there), of course "turning up the heat" on my most ill-favored sinners.

              My friend, it doesn't matter much if one damned soul's flame temperature is 1000 degrees and their neighbor's is 1100 degrees...

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Aussie Micha View Post
                47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

                Sorry, I can't see that talking about hell and different levels.

                Any other scriptures that are more clearer in teaching that concept.

                Well, again, if by "levels" you mean degrees of punishment, then that passage is very obviously about punishment in hell. If you read the whole of Luke 12 and particularly verse 5 you'll see Jesus talking about judging the wicked when He comes. He then notes in verses 47-48 that some of the wicked will be beaten with few stripes whilst others will be beaten with more, hence why I say this proves some people in hell suffer more than others.

                Oh, you also asked for another clearer passage. Try Luke 10:14 or Matt 23:14
                Last edited by james46888; January 24th, 2012, 08:36 AM. Reason: added more info

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                • #98
                  Regarding james46888's scriptures describing "greater damnation" in the "day of judgment" - I have generally viewed these as more severe pronouncements/ punishments occurring at the Great White Throne Judgment or any judgment of the lost. I don't know of clear scripture that describes "greater damnation" continuing eternally, but I also have none to the contrary.

                  We're not told everything and I firmly believe there will be a lot of "surprises" for both the saved and the lost. For instance, at the judgment of Christians (II Corinthians 5:10), which I call a "rewards or lack thereof" judgment, what if I am confronted with the name of a friend or close relative that would have been there if only I had told him how to be saved? Personally, I would prefer a physical "stripe" or two from a bullwhip than that. There is scripture that indicates that a Christian with no works for Christ will see all his secular works burned up, though the Christian himself will be saved "as though through fire". What an entrance to Heaven!

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                  • #99
                    Oh, one I forgot to mention would be Rev 20:13, which speaks about unbelievers being judged by their works at the final judgment. Obviously some of the unsaved have done more good than others so it is, IMO, intuitively obvious that those who in hell who have done more wrong than others will receive more punishment. Obviosuly all are punished eternally but there are "levels" of punishment (again by "levels" I'm not referring to different compartments within hell but, rather, I'm speaking degress of punishment)

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                    • Oh okay, I saw being 'judged by their works' to mean that God shows them how deserving of their punishment and how bad they are/were etc...

                      I suppose that just like a prison one gets less for petty crimes and more for serious ones. Maybe, Hell has different levels- like Heaven????

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aussie Micha View Post
                        Oh okay, I saw being 'judged by their works' to mean that God shows them how deserving of their punishment and how bad they are/were etc...

                        I suppose that just like a prison one gets less for petty crimes and more for serious ones. Maybe, Hell has different levels- like Heaven????
                        Dante’s Divine Comedy gave popular rise to the notions of degrees and levels of heaven and hell and he was certainly influenced by Catholicism. Suffice to say, heaven will be more wonderful than we can imagine and hell more terrible than we can imagine - and both are forever.
                        sigpic
                        Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                        Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


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                        • Originally posted by Aussie Micha View Post
                          I suppose that just like a prison one gets less for petty crimes and more for serious ones. Maybe, Hell has different levels- like Heaven????

                          Yeah, sort of, though not less in a time-sense but, rather, less in a severity sense. Using the prison analogy - and without trivialising it - I guess we'd compare it to someone who had to spend his sentence in the Gulag vs a small time crook in, say, the UK who gets a TV in his cell, is allowed to play pool, use the gym, etc. Again not meaning to trivalise hell with that analogy or make it seem that someone will be having an OK sort of time, but that's all I could think of off the top of my head.

                          As for heaven having levels of reward, believers do get rewarded differently in the millennial kingdom on earth but it'd seem in the eternal state all are equal.


                          Oh, BTW, did you see post #28 where I explained Luke 12 and offered some other verses about this issue? I was just checking because in your reply you cited Rev 20:13 which I mentioned in a different post but you didn't allude to the verses I cited in post #28 so I wasn't sure if you missed it

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                          • Originally posted by james46888 View Post
                            Yeah, sort of, though not less in a time-sense but, rather, less in a severity sense.
                            Those raised from hell for judgment would have their works be their ticket to Heaven. The Bible is clear the ultimate destination for the place we call hell is the Lake of Fire. Every lost person will wind up there without a boat. The "degrees of punishment" idea is man made. The Bible is not explicit about such matters of degree. Picture a modern metal smelting plant and the very large cauldrons full of molten metal. Imagine being dropped into one - does it really matter if you're dropped into the middle or next to the edge? Or picture the very thing the Bible describes - a fiery lake full of brimstone (sulfur) - a volcano's roiling and bubbling lava pit is great analogy of that very thing - does it really matter where one swims in such a place?


                            Levels In Hell?

                            Q.....I heard one Bible teacher say, “if you believe there are levels in Heaven, you have to consider that there are levels in Hell.” My question is, do you believe in this rationale?
                            A.
                            I don’t accept the rationale that Hell has to be a reverse image of heaven beyond the basic distinction that believers go to Heaven and unbelievers go to Hell. The Bible supports the idea that beyond salvation, which every believer receives, there are additional rewards available to those who qualify. The Lord also encouraged us to store up treasure in Heaven (Matt. 6:19-21), and our knowledge of human nature tells us some will store up more than others.
                            But the only similar statement for unbelievers is that they’ll be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:12-13). The only works God requires is belief in the Son (John 6:28-29). Even if He does consider other works of unbelievers, would He not make His judgment on the basis of their motives like He does with believers? What is the motive behind the good works of an unbeliever? It’s certainly not pleasing God or expressing gratitude to Him. Even for believers, good works done with impure motives will be burned up in the fire (1 Cor. 3:11-15). Would it not be the same for unbelievers? To me the whole idea of levels in Hell is an attempt to make the ways of God compatible with human ideals. http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...evels-in-hell/
                            sigpic
                            Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                            John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                            Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                            Comment


                            • Levels of punishment, yes. Actual levels in hell, doubt it.

                              I just began an home study course about Dante's Divine Comedy. Haven't gotten too far in it yet but I found this much out...Dante, who lived in Florence, had temporarily left to go travel elsewhere, I think Rome. Before he could return back to his beloved Florence, through political maneuverings and war, a group called Black Guelphs, which Dante did not belong to, came into power and Dante ended up being sent into eternal exile. A very hard thing for a man who loved Florence so much and who for a short time had been one of it's political leaders. He felt betrayed as he did not believe he was guilty of the charges that put him into eternal exile.

                              At the bottom of hell, Dante places Brutus and Judas. Two people well known to all of us as traitors. No doubt if Dante lived today, he'd have Benedict Arnold in the lowest part of hell as well. It's no coincidence to me that he has those who commit betrayal as those suffering in the lowest parts of hell, as he himself thought himself betrayed. It's from his feeling of being betrayed that the idea of different levels of hell came into existence.

                              For what it's worth, the Divine Comedy is not just about hell, it actually has 3 parts. He not only visits hell, but he also visits heaven and purgatory as well. From what I understand, he also gives different levels. If one is willing to accept that hell has different levels because of Dante, will that one also accept the existence of purgatory and levels of purgatory as well? The answer is no as purgatory and levels in hell are not Biblical

                              Gotta go. My kitty just crawled into my lap. He needs some luvin'.





                              My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
                              For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; the flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; the fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.


                              Baruch haba b'Shem Yahweh!!

                              sigpic

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                              • Little confused by your comments there, Steve. I'll break up your response into smaller chunks and reply where appropriate....


                                Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                                Picture a modern metal smelting plant and the very large cauldrons full of molten metal. Imagine being dropped into one - does it really matter if you're dropped into the middle or next to the edge? Or picture the very thing the Bible describes - a fiery lake full of brimstone (sulfur) - a volcano's roiling and bubbling lava pit is great analogy of that very thing - does it really matter where one swims in such a place?
                                Agree that it won't make a huge difference since none in gehenna will be having a good time, though again I still say, for example, Hitler suffers more than, say, someone who rejects Jesus but goes around helping the poor, not murdering, stealing, hating, etc. Not a huge difference but, IMO, a difference nevertheless.


                                Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                                The Bible is clear the ultimate destination for the place we call hell is the Lake of Fire. Every lost person will wind up there without a boat
                                Agree.


                                Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                                The "degrees of punishment" idea is man made. The Bible is not explicit about such matters of degree.
                                Every commentary I have ever read on passages like Luke 12:47-48 or Luke 10:14 have noted it teaches degrees of punishment for unbelievers in gehenna, except for commentaries written by JW's which generally leave those passages well alone since it destroys their view of unconsciousness being the "punishment" awaiting unbelievers. Of course all those commentators could be wrong but I was a little surprised anyone disagreed with this concept since I thought it was accepted fact
                                Last edited by james46888; January 25th, 2012, 03:00 PM. Reason: spelling

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