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  • Ishmael father of the Arabs?

    I have always been told that because of Abraham and Sarah's impatience and their attempt to help God with his promise that Abraham would have a son, that Ishmael was the result and that he was the father of the Arab nation that even now 4,000 years later are a thorn in the side of Israel... this made perfect sense to me and I was about to teach it to my youth group kids but this article that I stumbled across by someone that claims to be Christian is saying that Ishmael being the Father of the Arabs is a lie put forth by the Muslims in their attempt to have some sort of claim on Father Abraham and that Ishmael is in actuality the father of the Egyptians.... this doesnt make sense to me at all but I want to be sure before I teach my youth kids that Ishmael is the father of the Arabs. Here is the article:




    Ishmael, Father of the Arabs???
    Peace to all my dear brothers & sisters!

    -

    Muslims claim that Ishmael, the son of Abraham is the father of the Arabs therefore proving that Ishmael is the forefather of their prophet, Mohammad.

    And unfortunately, as a result of this, non-Muslims have taken this claim from them as a fact without doing any research of their own.

    Any intelligent person will understand that this is nothing but a big lie!

    Here is why...

    -

    Genesis 16:1
    Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

    Genesis 16:3
    And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

    - Hagar was an Egyptian and a slave of Sarai, Abraham's wife. She must have been racially different from Abram (Abraham) and his wife, Sarai (Sarah).

    Note: Egyptians were and are still considered as Africans (not Arabs) since Egypt is a part of the continent of Africa.

    Genesis 16:15
    And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.

    Genesis 16:16
    And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

    - Hagar was the mother of Ishmael. Therefore, Ishmael was half Egyptian.

    Genesis 12:1
    [ The Call of Abram ] The LORD had said to Abram, 'Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

    Genesis 11:31
    Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Haran, they settled there.

    - Abraham had left his country (now known as Iraq) and went to the land of Canaan (now known as Israel). Thus, Abraham and his wife were Iraqis which are NOT the same as Egyptians.

    Genesis 21:21
    While he was living in the wilderness of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

    - Ishmael's wife was Egyptian. Also, he was living in the wilderness of Paran which if you were to look on the map that I have attached to this e-mail, you would see that Paran is in Egypt close to Israel.

    Genesis 21:14
    And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

    - Hagar and his son, Ishmael had departed Abraham and his family (Sarah and Isaac).

    Genesis 37:28
    So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt.

    Genesis 39:1
    [ Joseph and Potiphar's Wife ] Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. Potiphar, an Egyptian who was one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain of the guard, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had taken him there.

    - The story of Joseph proves that the Ishmaelites were living in Egypt since those Ishmaelite traders took Joseph and all their possesions to Egypt to sell them.

    Genesis 17:20
    And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

    Genesis 16:12
    This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives.'

    - The Creator promised Ishmael to be fruitful and become the father of 12 tribes which will become a great nation. This was because of the love that The Creator had for Abraham. Also, The Creator predicted that Ishmael would be rebellious and hostile to all of his relatives (descendents of Isaac). This proves that Ishmael was NOT a prophet.

    Genesis 20:13-16, 18
    13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and KEDAR, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

    14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,

    15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:

    16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

    18 Ishmael's descendants occupied the region from Havilah to Shur, which is east of Egypt in the direction of Asshur. There they lived in open hostility toward all their relatives.

    - Ishmael had 12 sons who each of them became a leader of their own tribe. They had settled in the east of Egypt close to Israel. This proves that the Ishmaelites were living as Egyptians (Africans) and not as Arabs! This also fulfills one of the the prophecies in Genesis 17:20 (see above).

    Exodus 1:11
    11 So the Egyptians made the Israelites their slaves. They appointed brutal slave drivers over them, hoping to wear them down with crushing labor. They forced them to build the cities of Pithom and Rameses as supply centers for the king.

    Exodus 1:13-14
    13 So the Egyptians worked the people of Israel without mercy.
    14 They made their lives bitter, forcing them to mix mortar and make bricks and do all the work in the fields. They were ruthless in all their demands.

    - The Egyptians who were the sons of Ishmael took the Israelites (descendents of Isaac) as slaves for 400 years and were severely hostile to them which fulfills the other prophecy in Genesis 17:20 (see above). The Egyptians (Ishmaelites) were the great nation as prophesized. They had built the great pyramids which no scientist till today can explain how. They were extremely weathly and had a great army at that time.

    -

    In conclusion, Ishmael is not the father of the Arabs let alone Mohammad who was a Meccan (Saudi Arabian) but rather he was the father of the Egyptians. Mohammad has no connection to Abraham whatsoever.

    Peace.




    I feel his logic that just because Ishmael settled within the vicinity of Egypt that he is therefore the father of the Egyptians in absurd.... also I dont really understand why its so bad that the Muslims claim a part of Abraham through Ishmael, Ishmael was not the son of promise and he was essentially illigitmate which would give no credance at all to Islam as the true way to God... and so what if Ishmael was the father of Mohammad, does that mean anything at all? Does that suddenly mean that Islam is true? All that tells me is thats what happens when you try to do God's job we mess it up terribly and cause a man that will deceive millions to be born... so yeah any thoughts?

  • #2
    The logic is unsound. The bible clearly identifies them as Ishmaelites rather than Egyptians. The fact that they lived near Egypt does not make them Egyptians.

    Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham: And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.
    Genesis 25:12-18 (KJV)
    Ishmael Ish'mael (whom God hears).
    1. The son of Abraham by Hagar the Egyptian his concubine; born when Abraham was fourscore and six years old. Gene 16:15, 16 (b.c. 1910.) Ishmael was the first-born of his father. He was born in Abraham's house when he dwelt in the plain of Mamre; and on the institution of the covenant of circumcision, was circumcised, he being then thirteen years old Gene 17:26 With the institution of the covenant, God renewed his promise respecting Ishmael. He does not again appear in the narrative until the weaning of Isaac. At the great feast made in celebration of the weaning, "Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had borne unto Abraham, mocking," and urged Abraham to cast him and his mother out. Comforted by the renewal of God's promise to make of Ishmael a great nation, Abraham sent them away, and they departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. His mother took Ishmael a wife out of the land of Egypt." Gene 21:9-21 This wife of Ishmael was the mother of the twelve sons and one daughter. Of the later life of Ishmael we know little. He was present with Isaac at the burial of Abraham. He died at the age of 137 years. Gene 25:17, 18 The sons of Ishmael peopled the north and west of the Arabian peninsula, and eventually formed the chief element of the Arab nation, the wandering Bedouin tribes. They are now mostly Mohammedans who look to him as their spiritual father, as the Jews look to Abraham. Their language, which is generally acknowledged to have been the Arabic community so called, has been adopted with insignificant exceptions throughout Arabia. The term "Ishmaelite" occur on three occasions: Gene 37:25, 27, 28; 39:1; Judg 8:24; Psal 83:6
    —Smith's Bible Dictionary
    Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. - Charles H. Spurgeon

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    • #3
      Well here is something he totally missed. Esau the older brother of Jacob settled in Edom. Aren't they considered Arabs and they would be descendants from Abraham.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Mitsy View Post
        Well here is something he totally missed. Esau the older brother of Jacob settled in Edom. Aren't they considered Arabs and they would be descendants from Abraham.
        Interesting that Esau married an Ishmaelite ...

        When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan; And that Jacob obeyed his father and his mother, and was gone to Padanaram; And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father; Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.
        Genesis 28:6-9 (KJV)
        Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. - Charles H. Spurgeon

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Anddra View Post
          Interesting that Esau married an Ishmaelite ...
          Well there you go. I hadn't realised that.

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          • #6
            It's so easy to accidentally overlook or forget so many of these details. But these details leave me in awe of God.


            Pray without ceasing. 1 Thessalonians 5:17

            A closed mouth gathers no feet. Unknown

            Inside there's a thin woman trying to get out.
            I'm keeping her sedated with chocolate

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            • #7
              All Arabs descend from Ishmael in some form or another. Abraham did father Ishmael. He was blessed, his children blessed, and made many a nation because God's word is absolute. He was not the child of promise from God however. Therein lies the terrible tension in the Middle East today. The Arabs claim they are the children of promise, when it is the Jews, by Issac that are the promised of God. Ishmael is the result of Sarah and Abraham trying to accomplish what God had already ordained.

              In an ideal world, the displaced (read: kicked out and displaced from other Arab nations) Arabs would realize the rest of the entire world is a really great place and they're free to settle anywhere instead of trying to claim the land of the Jews. Great way to rouse the anger of God! Sadly, even established Arab nations refuse to accept their own people and would rather use the situation to wreak havoc and turmoil on the Jews even at the expense of their own. God has blessed the Arab people for the sake of Abraham. They are descended of Abraham indeed. Why they opt instead to curse themselves by raging and waring against God's people the Jews, their half-brothers, is really baffling. Surely Satan has a grip in their political affairs. Doesn't help that most of them worship an idol.

              Oh Lord, why did these people become so confused despite their inspired beginning? Did not your angel save Hagar and Ishmael in the desert? You had mercy on them Lord and did not wish them to die for you are loving and kind and full of compassion Father. Why have they lost their way and worship idols? Why do they hate each other and hate your people Israel even more? Might you Lord Jesus reveal to them Yourself? Won't you tear down their idol and soften their hearts to the truth? Your will be done Father. May the true children of Abraham come to accept the God of their father, the one True God, and His provision in the person of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah and the Son of the Living God. Amen.

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              • #8
                Interesting thread to read. Especially appreciated the last post with the prayer at the end. I think I'll copy it and pray that way for the people of Islam.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Accepted View Post
                  This is what I was also thinking... don't most translations read "He will be a wild donkey of a man..." What a description!
                  The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess. I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin. Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.
                  Originally posted by macrohard View Post
                  I think you are quite correct in the thought of a trinity. But I think there is much delusion going on here, as Satan is nowhere represented as a "trinity". There is only one "Trinity" (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That really is what Muslims are doing when throwing their seven stones at each pillar and what Satan has them doing in this delusion.....
                  Yep. They are not casting their stones at satan. They are casting their stones at the One True God.... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tiffanybw View Post
                    The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess.

                    I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin.

                    Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.

                    Just remember that just because someone did something in the bible and they weren't instantly struck dead doesn't mean God was ok with it. God never said that He was ok with sleeping with concubines or slaves or having many wives even though it was ok in that culture (just as it is in ours). God's rule has always been one man and one woman, He doesn't change. It is society that changes. So what Hagar did was adultery whether or not she was commanded to by Sarah. She could have refused and paid the price but she didn't. She was just as guilty as Abraham.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shonsu View Post
                      Just remember that just because someone did something in the bible and they weren't instantly struck dead doesn't mean God was ok with it. God never said that He was ok with sleeping with concubines or slaves or having many wives even though it was ok in that culture (just as it is in ours). God's rule has always been one man and one woman, He doesn't change. It is society that changes. So what Hagar did was adultery whether or not she was commanded to by Sarah. She could have refused and paid the price but she didn't. She was just as guilty as Abraham.
                      True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

                      I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
                      Last edited by Steve53; September 27th, 2015, 03:17 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tiffanybw
                        True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

                        I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
                        I guess that's my point. You said that it wasn't Hagar's fault but she certainly had some fault in it. She should have refused and died.
                        Last edited by Steve53; September 27th, 2015, 03:17 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tiffanybw View Post
                          The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess. I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin. Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.
                          Originally posted by tiffanybw View Post
                          True, it was adultery. It was sin. But she didn't have much choice. Women in that day, is the same as women in Islam, barely considered human, no rights. They are taught not to even think for themselves. The man commands. The woman complies. It wasn't just Sarah, Abraham went along with it and his decision was the final decision. Hagar could have refused and probably lost her life for it, sure, she could have. But being raised in that environment not only a woman, but a woman slave, she wasn't considered human at all. She was considered property of her owners. To even think of questioning them? Of not doing what they command? Because of the way things were back then, I doubt the thought even entered her mind as she didn't even consider herself human. And then, years later, when Abraham and Sarah did conceive and have Isaac, they coldly cast her and Ishmael out.

                          I know I'm thinking in terms of human emotion. But all she did was follow their commands. I can imagine being a slave, having all of these horrendous things done to me by my masters, and then all I get for it is to have me and my son cast out of society to die? No question, I would have been bitter about it. And the poor innocent baby? He didn't ask for any of it, and was in no way guilty, unless you want to consider the fact that he was born his fault.
                          Tiffany, I suggest you revisit your thoughts on this topic as they are not at all in keeping with God plans or His nature. Nor are the implied and blatant comments regarding Abraham and Sarah accurate in all that you say. Abraham was no ogre who treated his slaves with disdain and loathing. Abraham for example, pleaded with God on Ishmael's behalf but God had other plans for Ishmael -
                          Genesis 21:9-13
                          And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                            Tiffany, I suggest you revisit your thoughts on this topic as they are not at all in keeping with God plans or His nature. Nor are the implied and blatant comments regarding Abraham and Sarah accurate in all that you say. Abraham was no ogre who treated his slaves with disdain and loathing. Abraham for example, pleaded with God on Ishmael's behalf but God had other plans for Ishmael -
                            Genesis 21:9-13
                            And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”
                            Exactly Tiffany, you have a good heart and are always quick to jump to the aid of those who you perceive as being victims of injustices: Muslims, etc. However, when faced with the truth, you usually come around, after some convincing and research on your part, to that truth- for example, the "refugees." This is a pattern of yours and I'm not saying it is a bad thing; like I said you have a big heart and so much want to see the good in everyone.

                            However!!! In this case, I hope you quickly come around to what Steve is saying because you are treading on dangerous ground in what you are saying and thinking about the character of our Lord and His word.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tiffanybw View Post
                              The thing that breaks my heart about it though, Ishmael never asked to be born. And it certainly wasn't Hagar's fault. She was a servant, a slave. She merely did what was commanded of her by Abraham and Sarah. Abraham and Sarah did not trust God, that he would fulfill His promise to them in their old age. They didn't have faith. It was their sin that created all of this mess. I am no one to question God. But it's kind of like He saw fit to let Hagar and Ishmael live, didn't kill them because of Abraham and Sarah's sin, but still He cursed them, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs, and in many ways of the Muslim religion. I know I sound like a petulant child when I say this, but it doesn't seem fair. God should have punished Abraham and Sarah for their own sin, verses punishing the victims of their sin. Again, sorry to even imply I'm questioning God. Even though I don't always understand His ways, I have faith in Him and trust that His ways are the right ways.
                              I can understand why you'd feel that way, but there are righteous reasons behind all of it.

                              Just remember, the Lord sees all times as they happen. He knows what kind of person everyone is going to be even before they are born. That does not mean He makes them that way, but rather He sees. None of us asked to be born, but once we are, there is a set of expectations for us as humans. God took care of Hagar and Ishmael, and Abraham's descendants of Isaac didn't get out of reaping the "benefits" of Abraham's attempt to force God's hand (by sleeping with Hagar). Also, Abraham and Sarah did have faith and they found favor with God, but they were still human, and tried to fulfill God's promises in a human fashion.

                              Don't forget that was a different culture in a different place; Hagar would have been over the moon to bear Abraham's child and it was a very common thing to do when the lady of the house was infertile. Also, remember that God dealt with nations in the past as groups, hence the nation of Israel, and the tribe, the Ishmaelites, the Edomites, etc... often descended from one man. In this church age, He deals with individuals in a much more direct way.

                              Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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