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Revelation 19:20

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  • Revelation 19:20

    I was reading an article (Part 7) over on the other site, and have a question regarding Revelation 19:20, where it says, "These both [two] were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." speaking of the beast and the false prophet, as I understand it.

    My question is, is there anything in the text, here or elsewhere, that indicates that anyone other than "These both [two]" [the beast and the false prophet] are cast into the lake of fire at this point, say, those who received the mark of the beast? Or is it just "these both [two]"? I think the text is saying "these both [two]," not those who received the mark of the beast (though I do think they are finally judged then at the later GWTJ, Rev 20:12-15, with "the rest of the dead" who "lived not again" until the thousand years were completed, Rev 20:5a, 12a), but I'd like to hear your thoughts. Maybe I've missed something. Thanks.



    P.S. It wasn't long ago that I heard a speaker at a prophecy conference (several days long) making the same point that's being expressed in this (and all 7 parts of the) article I'm referring to. These are some of my remaining QUESTIONS with regard to the overall subject and point being made, in them. I'm just zeroing in on one aspect, in this particular OP Question. So, just to be clear, I'm asking a BIBLE STUDY question (regarding the text of Scripture), not a PHILOSOPHICAL one. Thanks!

  • #2
    I always thought it was those two and their minions who received the mark.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by caligal View Post
      I always thought it was those two and their minions who received the mark.
      Okay, thanks for your thoughts, Caligal.

      May I ask if it is this text you are referring to, or is it another passage?

      Here I will quote Rev 19:20-21 :

      20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

      21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


      To me, it reads that "these both [two]" refer only to the beast and the false prophet. These two are "cast alive" into the lake of fire at this point (not the remnant who are "slain"). But I'm willing to be corrected, if one can explain this text (or any other related one) differently. Thanks.

      Oh, and if you are referring to a different passage, I'd like to see which one you mean.


      From the article by Schmutzer:

      But any way you look at this, the antichrist and false prophet are either not human or not fully human. If they were human, they’d face the Great White Throne judgment first, and that doesn’t happen.

      That point leads into the next one which is the mark of the beast changes one’s physical nature. Do I know this for sure? No, I don’t. But every rational assessment of the situation lines up with this position.
      [bolding and underlining mine]

      I'm not sure the second paragraph here follows naturally from the point made in the first (something like a non sequitur ??) especially in view of the text in Rev 19:20-21 and what it seems to be stating clearly. But I could be missing something, and that's what I'm asking.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post

        Okay, thanks for your thoughts, Caligal.

        May I ask if it is this text you are referring to, or is it another passage?

        Here I will quote Rev 19:20-21 :

        20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

        21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


        To me, it reads that "these both [two]" refer only to the beast and the false prophet. These two are "cast alive" into the lake of fire at this point (not the remnant who are "slain"). But I'm willing to be corrected, if one can explain this text (or any other related one) differently. Thanks.

        Oh, and if you are referring to a different passage, I'd like to see which one you mean.
        The way I read this, in Rev 19:20-21, the beast and FP are cast alive into the LOF. The rest are slain with the Word They are mentioned with the beast and FP because they were deceived by the FP's signs, they had the MOB and worshipped the beast... not because they shared their immediate destination. They don't show up again until after the MK, at the GWT, when anyone whose name was not found in the LBOL went into the LOF. Rev 20:15

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        • #5
          Originally posted by pixelpusher View Post

          The way I read this, in Rev 19:20-21, the beast and FP are cast alive into the LOF. The rest are slain with the Word They are mentioned with the beast and FP because they were deceived by the FP's signs, they had the MOB and worshipped the beast... not because they shared their immediate destination. They don't show up again until after the MK, at the GWT, when anyone whose name was not found in the LBOL went into the LOF. Rev 20:15
          Thanks, pixelpusher. That is also how I understand it.

          I'm not 100% sure that this article-writer makes the same point, but those I've heard speak of it say that because "the mark" changes their DNA (as this author does suggest, though admits he's not SURE), that this means they suffer the same fate that the beast and the false prophet do (that is, immediate casting into the lake of fire) because (as they suggest) their DNA is NO LONGER HUMAN (but "seed of Satan" by contrast, which is and requires the unusual and more severe punishment than the usual/typical dead people who die throughout history, at the GWTJ after the 1000 years).

          I had added his quote (in question) to my last post after you had quoted my post. Hopefully this helps clarify.

          Thank you, and if you have further thoughts, I'd like to hear!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post

            f they were human, they’d face the Great White Throne judgment first, and that doesn’t happen.
            Well now, that's interesting, never thought of that. It was pointed out that they are cast _alive_ into the LOF. It's appointed to man to die, then judgment. These two are judged on the spot.

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            • #7
              If the MOB changed humans into something else, then why are they slain then, if we follow this trail? I'm not sure I buy that. It's fearsome enough that it will happen as written.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by pixelpusher View Post

                Well now, that's interesting, never thought of that. It was pointed out that they are cast _alive_ into the LOF. It's appointed to man to die, then judgment. These two are judged on the spot.
                Okay, good thought. (and that's his quote, not mine, for the sake of the readers )

                People often use the "it is appointed unto man once to die..." to make the point that ALL [humans] MUST DIE. But what of those who are raptured (who are "we which are ALIVE and remain"), not to mention what Jesus had said in John 11:26 (of the two-parter, John 11:25-26), who NEVER DIE.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by pixelpusher View Post
                  If the MOB changed humans into something else, then why are they slain then, if we follow this trail? I'm not sure I buy that. It's fearsome enough that it will happen as written.
                  Right. That's my point. It doesn't follow. (Not that I can see... but why I'm asking!)

                  It sounds like the article I'm referring to (on the other site) might be espousing (something LIKE) the "serpent seed" doctrine... Not sure. (but I thought that was forbidden to be posted on these Forums, no? My guess is that the author would say, no, it's not the same... yet he seems to suggest their punishment is "more severe" than the usual people who will be judged at the later GWTJ, and suggesting they are different people altogether, it seems).


                  ETA: my point ISN'T to suggest that there aren't degrees of punishment in the eternal state or whatever, but more along the lines of asking "WHEN" this occurs:

                  Rev 14:10-11 :

                  10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

                  11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


                  It seems to me that this occurs at the GWTJ, not in the Rev 19:20-21 context (except for the beast and the false prophet, as I understand it). But I'm presenting this thread to ask what I'm missing, in view of the points made in the article. Thanks again! My thought to that idea would be, who then is "the remnant" that is "slain" and why are THEY killed, if they are not among those having taken "the mark" who thus "changed their DNA" according to that idea?? It doesn't make any biblical sense, any way you slice it (as far as I can tell!)

                  I appreciate your comments!

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                  • #10
                    My impression from that verse is that those two will gain early entry into the Lake of Fire. I've never read a scripture passage that would lead me to believe that a person's DNA would be altered when they receive the mark of the beast, or that they would no longer be human. I figure those who receive the mark will stand judgment when that time comes, and will wait for that time with the rest of the dead who will all eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire forever.
                    Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

                    3 trees

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post
                      My impression from that verse is that those two will gain early entry into the Lake of Fire. I've never read a scripture passage that would lead me to believe that a person's DNA would be altered when they receive the mark of the beast, or that they would no longer be human. I figure those who receive the mark will stand judgment when that time comes, and will wait for that time with the rest of the dead who will all eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire forever.
                      This is how I understand it also.

                      Have you been following the 7-Part article, though? I'm pretty sure the author believes he has good biblical reasoning for it (given throughout the 7 parts), as well as the one posting his articles, there.
                      Just wondered if you've followed the articles and are answering in view of that, or separate from that altogether. Thanks, Tall Timbers!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post

                        This is how I understand it also.

                        Have you been following the 7-Part article, though? I'm pretty sure the author believes he has good biblical reasoning for it (given throughout the 7 parts), as well as the one posting his articles, there.
                        Just wondered if you've followed the articles and are answering in view of that, or separate from that altogether. Thanks, Tall Timbers!
                        I've not followed the articles so my thoughts would be separate from those altogether.
                        Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

                        3 trees

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post

                          I've not followed the articles so my thoughts would be separate from those altogether.
                          Thank you.

                          And thank you for grasping my question (to you, in my post #11) and responding (accordingly). Much appreciated, Tall Timbers.

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