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Would I be in rebellion to God's Word If.....

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Watcher

    Intheair, both genders are equally susceptible to deception. Although men and women could be led astray at any age, it is children and young believers, both male and female, who are most susceptible to deception before they LEARN the truth. This is the point. LEARNING guards all of us against being led astray. Gender makes no difference. Thus, Paul's appeal:

    That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; - Eph 4:14 KJV


    In Post #19 I explained the meaning of the word that's translated as "authority" in verse 12. 1 Cor 7 is the only place you will find the Greek word commonly translated as "authority" where it is used in the context of the marriage relationship. This authority is always mutual.
    Yet it still stands for whatever reason you may...
    I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
    (1Ti 2:12-14)

    Comment


    • #17
      Watcher, you appear to be very well-learned. You also seem to have a horse in this race.

      It has always been my contention that where the Word of God is clear on something, we should take it on it's word. If you need special education and knowledge to make your point, you're probably trying too hard.

      1. There are no exceptions in these verses. It says: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
      -Look at it. This statement is clear. There are no qualifiers. It does not say "young women", or "old women", and it is quite clear that this applies specifically to women, not men. Reading before and after also makes it clear that it says what it says.

      2. It is possible for anyone to learn sound doctrine and not teach, but use it for their own edification. It is also possible for a woman to learn sound doctrine and teach it to others, without being over men, and thus going against what this verse says.

      3. There were female disciples, but when Jesus called the twelve apostles, they were men. Jesus chose to establish His church with Peter, a man. When Jesus called another apostle, Paul, he was also a man.

      4. When the deacons were established, they were men (Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business) They were to see that the widows in the church were taken care of.

      5. Since we don't know who Chloe was teaching, we can not use her as an example of being over men.

      6.The Old Testament is not the church. Jesus said that he would establish His church with Peter. It is therefore of no consequence what any of the female leaders in the Old Testament did with relation to the establishment of the church. But if it were, Sarah is a perfect example of why women shouldn't lead men. It was Sarah that suggested to her husband that he sleep with her handmaid because she didn't trust God to fulfil His promise through her. Then when God did send the son of promise, Isaac, Sarah basically told her husband to send Ishmael and Hagar away to their deaths. If God hadn't intervened they would have died. It has been a source of misery for Israel ever since then. (Seriously, there are better examples than Sarah.)

      It is not the subjugation of women to suggest that men are to be the Pastors (shepherds, leaders) over the church. Women do have roles within the church. Just not over men. I know it's not popular to say these days, but I am choosing the Word over what is popular.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Watcher

        Arkie Tuzi, I do appreciate your response, but you've now brought up many more subjects including the reason Why the 12 disciples were males, Original male deacons, Confusion about what I said about Chloe, Parallels between the church and Israel, Principles set forth in the OT for our learning, Romans 15:4, Sarah before the Son of Promise when she went along with Abraham's lies two times and both she and Abraham's lapses of faith with Hagar, The point at which Sarah even found out about the Promise, Hagar's abuse of Sarah, Abraham's complicity in it, Sarah after the Son of Promise when she took a stand for God, God's gifts and callings not being gender specific, etc, etc.

        I don't think my horse can run that fast, but maybe around the next bend I'll find a scenic spot to hitch him up for awhile and focus on these things. Right now I intend to finish responding to your first set of comments.
        Choose to respond or not. I've said my piece. I understand what you are saying. I'm saying you're wrong. What is written in the Bible is clear, and that is the way I will choose to understand it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Feather

          That's wrong! People live their own gospel every single day. They create God in their image and likeness, and they intentionally, purposefully, overlook the scripture that specifically says there is no discrimination among the people of God due to God's forbidding that.
          Those people live as if God is a sexist. They're wrong. Women preached the Gospel, Mary Magdalene was highly favored by Jesus and she was the one that found the empty tomb and led the men that were apostles to follow her to that tomb.

          In the end, that which argues God is sexist will stand before the throne and tell him why it was true. And why they imagined God could sin as they did being sexist. The Bible says what it says. People misrepresent its truth every single day just to sustain their own prejudices. Those are people who need Christ. Not people who can say they can teach Christ and know what they're talking about.
          I Corinthians 12. Read it. It says what I just did. Not everyone has the same job within the church. I have never posited that men are better than women. That would be sexist. I am only saying that we have different roles. And according to First Timothy (I'll not repeat it again) women are not to have the role of pastor within the church.

          Comment


          • #20


            No one is saying women can't minister, teach etc., it's just that they are not to have authority over a man...that would include being his teacher. As Christians, we must make our decisions according to Scripture, not on an emotional basis. Jesus worked with Peter and in 2Pet3 Peter put his stamp of approval on Paul's teaching, so we can't put an artificial divide between Jesus and Paul.
            Last edited by Steve53; June 11th, 2018, 02:47 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Intheair View Post

              No one is saying women can't minister, teach etc., it's just that they are not to have authority over a man...that would include being his teacher. As Christians, we must make our decisions according to Scripture, not on an emotional basis. Jesus worked with Peter and in 2Pet3 Peter put his stamp of approval on Paul's teaching, so we can't put an artificial divide between Jesus and Paul.
              Amen.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Feather
                No, that's not at all true. A pastor is a teacher.
                I would pray for any man that thinks they're not able to be taught by a woman because of her sex.
                Men that believe this makes me wonder if they would be so committed to insisting a woman can't be a pastor would quit their job if they found out their boss was female. Or if their male boss retired and a woman was promoted to his former post.

                There is an artificial divide between Jesus and Paul when it is argued that Paul said this when Jesus never did.
                What people opposed to women pastors fail to realize when trying to invoke Paul as commander of this prohibition is one very obvious fact. In verse 2:12 Paul does not invoke God nor Jesus as the authority that made this edict against women teaching or having authority over men. Paul did! Because Paul was writing to the churches that he started and managed. These were Paul's prohibitions. Not those handed down by God or Jesus that Paul then related. Otherwise, Paul would have used their authority when writing those particular points in his epistle.

                And it is still convoluted that Paul would do this when Paul previously stated that we are all one in Christ Jesus. Then he divides the sexes by stating one sex, female, should not teach nor have authority over the other.
                But again, that is Paul's mind. Not that of God nor Jesus. This is a very important distinction being no one can declare God would never call a woman to preach. That women do preach is evidence God knows what he's doing. And that sexist bias or bigotry is just another sin humans are prone to. Not God.
                Apples and oranges. The boss at work is not exercising spiritual authority over the workers (unless it is a cult labor camp lol). If there is a divide between Jesus and Paul, why did Jesus pick only male Apostles?
                Sexist? Ok, this sniffs of the liberal left resorting to class, sex and race equality.
                You know what. I'm not going to argue senselessly over this issue. Go pastor a dying liberal Church and take it up with Jesus on Judgment Day.

                Comment


                • #23
                  In a lot of the conservative denominations they prohibit women speaking in church. There are plenty of examples of women being given authority in the Bible. In my denomination, the Nazarenes, women also preach. So let's take a look at a passage in 1 Corinthians 14:34 "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." (ESV)

                  The entire passage is breaking down orderly worship. That in fact seems to be most of the theme from chapter 11 to here in 14. Throughout the whole bit, it seems like one of the biggest issues that the church in Corinth was having was its members being disruptive during the service. As I had said in my previous response, it seems that the women of the church were asking questions, misunderstanding things, and disrupting the service, as it was a pagan area, and a lot of this was all new. If you look earlier in the chapter, women are not the only people told to be silent, so are those who prophecy and those who speak in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 "If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God." (ESV)

                  This seems to imply that he means a temporary silence, to keep quiet until the appropriate time. The same could be said about women, to be quiet if they are wondering something, and hold their questions until they are home and then ask their husband. Again, the reasons for this are evident from the time; the women were not educated and had been used to a pagan environment. This is made more evident with chapter 11 being used in reference.

                  1 Corinthians 11:4-5 "4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven." (ESV) So in chapter 11, Paul is ok with women speaking, but not in chapter 14. Obviously he is not contradicting himself, so what is the meaning? He is simply stating there is a time and place for questions and other things, and an orderly way to do everything.

                  The one time I brought this up, someone tried to say that he meant women could prophecy at home, but not in service. Here is one more reference to dispute that idea.

                  1 Corinthians 14:4 " The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church." (ESV) Obviously, Paul is writing about public prophecy.

                  I wonder then, what about the rest of Paul's writings? We know from the rest of the New Testament that Priscilla and Aquilla instructed Apollos, Phoebe was a deacon and Paul's emissary to Rome. Junia is found among the apostles and was imprisoned for her witness alongside them. It seems unlikely that these things could have been accomplished while being quiet in church or without any church authority.

                  That's to say nothing of the woman at the well, who led many to Christ by her testimony, Deborah who was judge over Israel and who Barak sought for guidance, and many other examples. I believe this is a misunderstanding that has plagued the church too long, and holds many people back.

                  I was raised in an environment in which women were not allowed to preach. I grew up in fundamentalist-Calvinistic churches, which prohibit many things, women minister being one of those. I left those churches, and will admit that this was not an issue I initially revisited. In considering membership in my Nazarene church which I eventually joined, I learned that women ministers are allowed, and so I looked into the issue throughout the Bible. I do not personally find it difficult to see evidence of women teaching, preaching, and having authority throughout both the Old and New Testaments, and have no issue with women preaching and being pastors. Personally, I have never sat under a female pastor, but would not be opposed to it.
                  1 John 3:16 "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." (KJV)

                  Psalm 94:18 "When I said, My foot slippeth; thy mercy, O Lord, held me up." (KJV)

                  Daniel 9:1

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Feather
                    You are mistaken.
                    There are different epistles authored by Paul. Not every letter Paul wrote is God appointed. Paul did not invoke God nor Jesus when writing the prohibition against women pastors and female authority over men. Those were Paul's orders, rules, concerning the churches he managed. Edited this to add: 1 Corinthians 7:12 is one example in Paul's writings wherein he clarifies it is his opinion, not the Lord's that appear there.So no, not every epistle Paul wrote was God inspired.

                    We can't pick and choose which Bible verses to believe. What we can do is be as the Bereans and test the things we're told against the Scriptures.

                    2 Timothy 3:16
                    sigpic
                    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Folks this discussion is borderline devolving and I'm asking now that we all remember our Christian witness.

                      https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...wed-to-preach/
                      https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...ers-permitted/
                      https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...n-in-ministry/
                      https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...try-follow-up/
                      sigpic
                      Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                      John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                      Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Watcher
                        The issues regarding church leadership are not gender-related. They are age-related,....
                        Please refer to the Jack Kelley articles posted above for clarification regarding your assertions.

                        sigpic
                        Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                        Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TruePriest
                          It's a shame when you cant discuss things without losing your temper. I believe women can be called to be ministers, but I won't insult you over it.
                          All Christians should be able to express their gifts to God's glory!

                          I think it's fairly well understood that women definitely can be ministers of the faith.

                          It's also understood we've all been given certain gifts we express differently.

                          The core discussion regarding women as leaders is interesting and needn't be sidetracked with extra-Biblical writings and arguments against inerrancy.




                          sigpic
                          Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                          John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                          Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The other day, when I saw that you (pretty sure it was Watcher) had posted the following verse, I had wanted to pop in here and say that this has been among my favorite verses for a good long time, and to thank you for posting it here! (I'm not sure if that was in the post that disappeared, or not... I don't see it now):

                            2 Cor 1:24 "24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are HELPERS of your joy: for by faith ye stand."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Watcher
                              [*]The reason why the original 12 Apostles and Paul were males, and why later we see a female apostle, Junia, Rom 16:7
                              I've seen that mentioned before, that the phrase "who are of note among the apostles" necessarily means "they themselves were apostles." But why can't it be meaning that they "were of note in the realm of the apostles" kinda like one could possibly say something like, "Barbara Bush was of note among [in the realm or sphere of] the Presidents" but that doesn't mean she herself was actually a President, just that "in the realm of the Presidents [their realm], she was of note." So like, running in those circles as she did, they took note of her [her service, contribution, character, etc].

                              I'm just wondering if, for example, something in the grammar or word-usage REQUIRES it to mean as you (and others I've seen) say, that it means necessarily that Junia WAS an apostle. Or if the other way I'm presenting it could be a possibility?



                              ETA: I'm inclined to believe she wasn't, based on other considerations... this would just be an added consideration in this matter.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                When I read Watcher's posts here I'm reminded of Genesis 3:1 Yea, hath God said..... I hope no one here is eating this fruit.
                                And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 1 Timothy 6:8

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