Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Would I be in rebellion to God's Word If.....

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Arkie Tuzi, I'm trying to respond one-by-one to each of the different subjects you brought up, as it's way too much to tackle in one post. It may take awhile. But before we jump into one of the most contested and confused passages about women in the NT, I think it would be good to recap the true context of 1 Timothy, which is "adhering to sound doctrine in the midst of spiritual warfare". Up to this point, the outline of chapters 1 and 2 would look something like this:



    WARRING a GOOD WARFARE
    1 Tim 1:18

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *******
    INSIDE THREATS
    (To Sound Doctrine, a Life of Godliness, and Coming to the Knowledge of the Truth)

    Human Religion/False Teachers
    1 Tim 1:19

    THE SOLUTION

    Plan A: Identify the Offender and Correct Him
    Plan B: Deliver Him to Satan and Publicly Name Him

    1 Tim 1:19-20

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *******

    OUTSIDE THREATS
    (To Sound Doctrine, a Life of Godliness, and Coming to the Knowledge of the Truth)

    Human Government/World
    1 Tim 2:1-2

    THE SOLUTION

    Secure the Perimeter - Prayer
    1 Tim 2:1-2, 8-9

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *******

    FIRST LINE of DEFENSE
    (For Protecting Sound Doctrine, a Life of Godliness, and Coming to the Knowledge of the Truth)

    Men and Women who Profess Godliness
    1 Tim 2:10

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *******

    MALE AND FEMALE UNIFORMS

    Inward and Outward Attitude, Dress, Action
    1 Tim 2:8-9


    TRAINING CLASSES

    Equal Opportunity
    1 Tim 2:11


    TRUTH 101

    1 Tim 1:3, 11, 18; 2:4, 7


    RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

    1 Tim 2:11-13


    FRONT-LINE and HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT

    Plan A: Males
    1 Tim 1:20; 1 Tim 2:12-13

    Plan B: Females
    1 Cor 1:11; Judges 4:22; 5:24-31

    ************************************************** ************************************************** *******

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

      I Timothy 2:7-3:7
      7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
      In Peter's warning about hard to be understood passages, 2 Pet 3:16, this has to be at the top of the list, so I'm going to break it down in small sections.

      Looking back to 1 Tim 1:18, we see that the subject is "warfare".

      This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest WAR A GOOD WARFARE; - 1Ti 1:18 KJV


      We know that Paul is continuing his thoughts on this subject because in 1 Tim 2:1 he begins by saying, "I exhort, THEREFORE, that FIRST OF ALL..." and then he proceeds with a series of admonitions on what to do/not do.

      In the context then, of "adhering to sound doctrine in the midst of spiritual warfare", verses 11-15 fall into the categories on my outline of "training classes, rules of engagement, and front-line and hand-to-hand combat".


      Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. - 1Ti 2:11 KJV

      First of all, it's important to know that verse 11 is a "command". The woman also is to learn sound doctrine, not just the man. Even in that day, Paul had to fight against those who wanted to silence women. Thus, his command. We've already seen that one of the reasons for learning sound doctrine is to TEACH IT to OTHERS, 2 Tim 2:2, Heb 5:11-12. (See also Desire for her husband, post #30, http://www.rr-bb.com/forum/enter-the...d-genesis-3-16) The attempt to silence women was also an issue in the church at Corinth, by the way.

      In Judaism, women weren't allowed to learn doctrine, let alone teach it. When Jesus arrived, he broke the rules and angered a lot of people because he treated women as equal to men. Women, as well as men, were his disciples. This was unheard of at the time. One of those women was Mary of Bethany who sat at his feet. Mary learned sound doctrine from Jesus and acted upon it. This woman was given such high praise by Jesus that He said:

      Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever THIS GOSPEL shall be PREACHED in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, BE TOLD for a memorial of her. - Mat 26:13 KJV


      Mary of Bethany was the only one of Jesus' disciples to really understand and believe that He was not only going to die, but that he would also rise up from the dead. What Jesus intended for the male disciples to "get", in His resurrection of Lazarus (Mary's brother) from the dead (John 11:15), Mary got instead. She was the first person to preach THIS "new" gospel of Jesus' DEATH AND RESURRECTION via her actions. Interestingly, I've never once in 43 years of being a Christian ever heard a preacher tell what Mary did. On the contrary, I've heard one in particular say that Mary didn't actually know what she was doing, that her actions were mindless. This is very sad, to say the least. But the Scripture teaches that her actions were extremely thought out, premeditated, and deliberate!

      How can there be any victory when half or more of God's army is disarmed?

      Comment


      • #18
        To recap, the purpose for both men and women learning sound doctrine is to teach it to others and to win the ongoing war against the Truth. Sound doctrine helps protect us from the deception of the enemy no matter how young or old we are, whether male or female. Learning sound doctrine leads to living sound doctrine which is godliness, one of the many things that the enemy, in his relentless pursuit of God's children, does not want to happen.

        Secondly, it's important to note the structure of verses 11-12.


        Let the woman learn......

        IN SILENCE
        with all subjection
        But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man
        but to be
        IN SILENCE. - 1 Tim 2:11-12



        The word "silence" is repeated in verse 12, creating what I call bookends. Just as bookends contain a row of books, these words contain what lies between them. Sometimes what lies in the middle of a chiastic-type structure is the main point. The structure is also a clue that the text contained within is somehow specific to the immediate context.The restriction on the woman teaching/usurping authority over the man is confined to this unique situation. We also know this because of the other verses that illustrate women teaching, speaking, etc. See a few examples in Post #8 http://www.rr-bb.com/forum/enter-the...d-genesis-3-16

        The Greek word translated as "silence" here is hesychia. It simply means "quietness, calmness", not complete silence. In 2 Thess 3:12 it's translated as quietness, "...that with quietness they work...". It's also the same word used in Acts 22:2 where the uproarious crowd had quieted down after being stirred up by the Jews who thought Paul was a false teacher, "they kept the more silence". Paul also uses the adjective form of this word hesychios in 1 Tim 2:2 where it's translated as "peaceable". There's a different Greek word that does mean complete silence, sige, which is used in Acts 21:40 and Rev 8;1, "there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour".

        Also, Paul has shifted from the plural "women" in the previous verses to the singular "woman". Whoever the woman was or even if Paul was making a general reference to a woman in contrast to a man, either way, there was some disturbance taking place or he wouldn't have had to mention it. Paul is not saying women are to be silent in this Warfare 101 class, he's just saying that a woman should settle down, just as in the example in Acts of the uproarious crowd quieting down at Paul's request.

        So what was the disturbance? I don't know for sure, but most likely, some woman was just being too loud and verbal in a debate/discussion, maybe even hostile toward some particular man. We know from chapter 1 that there were false teachers going around making trouble, 1 Tim 1:3-7; 18-20. This was a constant problem for Paul This is what our war is about, a fight for the Truth, for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

        It shouldn't be surprising that both men and women can get upset by false teachers spewing out lies. I listened to a preacher one time who, in the space of 25 minutes, used the word "giving" in one form or another, 65 times. Afterwards, a collection was taken up. When he was finished, he stood at the back of the church with his arms folded, looking quite smug. I know of at least one person who felt like slapping him silly for his blatant attempt to manipulate and fleece the flock.

        Next, what does it really mean to "usurp authority over"?
        Last edited by Watcher; May 19th, 2018, 10:24 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

          I Timothy 2:7-3:7
          7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

          "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence."


          Verse 12 needs to be looked at very closely while being kept in the broad context of "adhering to sound doctrine in the midst of spiritual warfare". Some mistakenly isolate this verse and read into it what they want to see, or what they've been taught, which is that women are not allowed to teach men. I've already shown why this idea is incorrect.

          The 3 English words "usurp authority over", are translated from only 1 Greek word, authenteo. Because this is the only place in the NT where the word is used, there is nothing else to compare it to. According to Vines Expository Dictionary, in earlier times the word was used in terms of violent crimes such as murder, or even just some kind of forceful action against another person.

          The word does NOT mean "authority" as we think of it today, as in the sense of governmental authorities, a boss, etc. We know that because the NT commonly uses a different word for that kind of authority or "power", exousiazo. It's used in 1 Cor 7:4 to describe the mutual power/authority of a husband and wife. It's never used to denote any singular authority of men over women or of husbands over wives.

          The other thing to note about "authenteo", is that the word "teach" is connected to it. They go together, they're not separate ideas. The teaching of this man is tied to "authenteo-ing" him.

          Without adding all the English words to the translation of authenteo, especially the words "usurp/over", which don't exist in the Greek text, the verse would look something like this:

          "But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to authenteo the man, but to be in silence."

          Since there is no other verse to compare this word to in its usage, could there possibly be a clue in the text itself? Yes, there is.

          In 1 Tim 1:18-20, immediately before Paul begins his address regarding the "troops", the Christian men and women who are "professing" godliness, he describes some kind of "forceful action" that he himself took against two male false teachers in order to "teach" them something.

          This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good WARFARE; - 1Ti 1:18 KJV

          Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: - 1Ti 1:19 KJV

          Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I HAVE DELIVERED UNTO SATAN, that they may LEARN not to blaspheme. - 1Ti 1:20 KJV



          Next - the Rules of Engagement

          Comment


          • #20
            Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I HAVE DELIVERED UNTO SATAN, that they may LEARN not to blaspheme. - 1Ti 1:20 KJV


            So we see that Paul had delivered or "handed over" two males to Satan. (See also 1 Cor 5:1-13) I don"t know exactly how he did that, but surely it was forceful, either physically or verbally or both. The word that's translated here as "learn" is paideuo, which has the idea of a long-term learning process or sometimes even chastisement. It's used in the passive tense, so these two males are going to be somehow "taught" not to blaspheme.

            Paideuo however, is not the same word translated as "learn" in verse 11, "let the woman learn". , which is manthano. Manthano is the active verb form of mathetes, which is the Greek word for "disciple". When Paul states that the woman is to "learn", she is not only passively receiving instruction but practicing it. Again, one of the purposes of learning is to teach it to others. Thus, Paul"s interjection on HOW she is to learn........quietly, rather than in an uproar or even hostile manner. (see post # 18)

            The question then, is WHY would Paul not allow a woman to do what he did to Hymenaeus and Alexander?

            The answer is easy. It was dangerous!

            It might help to remember that almost all of the false teachers in the Bible are males. In Paul's time, they had already crept into the church. Paul is simply prohibiting the woman from engaging in front-line, hand-to-hand combat with these guys. These are his Rules of Engagement in this WARFARE. He doesn't want her going up against them or taking the kind of action that he took against Hymenaeus and Alexander. Some of these men were vicious, strikers, brute beasts, etc. (See 1 Tim 3:3, Tit 1:7, Tit 3:2, 2 Pet 2:12, Jude 1:10) Especially note 1 Cor 15:32:

            If after the manner of men I HAVE FOUGHT WITH BEASTS at EPHESUS, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. - 1Co 15:32 KJV

            The city of Ephesus is where Timothy was when he received Paul's first letter. Paul had previously been there himself and it's where he had "fought with beasts". The men that Paul encountered at Ephesus were so ferocious, Paul considered them animals.


            Later, it was the city of Ephesus from which Paul summoned the elders on his way to Jerusalem, warning them about the "grievous wolves".

            And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. - Act 20:17 KJV

            For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. - Act 20:29 KJ
            V


            So Paul is protecting the woman from physical harm, that's all. He doesn't want her to attempt to teach or discipline these potentially dangerous male false teachers. Males against males, not females against males.



            Next - Men and Women Working Together

            Comment


            • #21
              In OT wartime, there a handful of illustrations of a woman literally engaged in hand-to-hand combat with a man. One of them was Jael, the wife of Heber, Judges 4-5. The Scripture highly praises this woman for slaying Sisera, the captain of the host for Jabin, king of Canaan, Jud 4:2. It was God Himself who sold Sisera into the hand of a woman, Jud 4:9. Yet, most women don't have the physical strength to overpower a man so Jael found another way. She lulled him to sleep with some milk (calcium induces sleep), took her hammer, and then drove a tent stake through his temples. This took tremendous courage on her part. If Sisera would have woken up and seen her standing over him with the hammer and tent stake in her hands, she wouldn't have stood a chance against the physical strength of this warrior. She would have been dead. Not surprisingly, I've heard preachers criticize this woman, even when God Almighty praises her. Go figure. Sisera, not surprisingly, received what we would call "poetic" justice for his crimes against women, who were treated as spoils of war, just as they still are in some countries today, Jud 5:28-30.

              At HER feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at HER feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead. - Jdg 5:27 KJV

              The enemies of both godly men and women are the enemies of God.

              So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but [let] them that love him [be] as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years. - Jdg 5:31 KJV


              We also see how Sarah instructed Abraham to cast out the bondwoman Hagar and her son Ishmael. At that point in time, Ishmael was a strapping teenage boy and had already demonstrated his animosity toward young Isaac. It wouldn't have been safe for Sarah to go up against him herself. This was Abraham's duty, and he reluctantly complied, in submission to God, Gen 21:12.

              In the NT, Chloe, among others, gives us a glimpse of how men and women can work together in this spiritual battle for the good of the church and God's glory.

              Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. - 1Co 1:10 KJV

              For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] OF CHLOE, that there are contentions among you. - 1Co 1:11 KJV

              Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am OF PAUL; and I OF APOLLOS; and I OF CEPHAS; and I OF CHRIST. - 1Co 1:12 KJV


              Chloe is one female in a list of church leaders. We know that because in the immediate context, Paul singles out 4 others, including Christ, whom are being followed by certain people, thereby creating divisions. The wording is the same in each case, Of Chloe, Of Paul, Of Apollos, Of Cephas, Of Christ.

              The words "which are of the house" are in brackets because they don't exist in the Greek text but are insertions by the translators.

              Chloe was aware of some major problems going on at Corinth and alerted Paul so he could take care of it, and he enthusiastically complied.

              So really, that men should physically protect women is basic common sense. In fact, men are obligated to use their superior physical strength, status, power, and position in this earthly world, to help lift up and strengthen women, rather than dominate and objectify them, 1 Peter 3:7, being heirs together of the grace of life.

              In John 2, we see a female leader being warned by John about not even allowing deceivers into her home. The early church met in homes.


              Next - Paul's unique writing style, 1 Timothy 2:11-15

              Comment


              • #22
                I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:12-14)

                Since Paul is reaching back to Adam and Eve it is an indication he is referring to all women and not just those of that culture, and because he points out the fact that Eve was the one deceived, he strengthens the reason a woman should not be in authority over a man. So no, I would not place myself in submission to a woman pastor. 1Cor 11:1-16 further elaborates on this matter of authority.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Intheair View Post
                  I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:12-14)

                  Since Paul is reaching back to Adam and Eve it is an indication he is referring to all women and not just those of that culture, and because he points out the fact that Eve was the one deceived, he strengthens the reason a woman should not be in authority over a man. So no, I would not place myself in submission to a woman pastor. 1Cor 11:1-16 further elaborates on this matter of authority.
                  Yes, it really is that simple. Women are allowed to teach and to learn, but they are not to be over men in the heirarchy of the church. Because that's what it clearly says in these verses.
                  So who do they teach? Younger women and children.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sonshine777 View Post
                    I attended a church with a female pastor leading it?
                    Of course not. Why would you think this?

                    There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.


                    Just as each of us has one body with many members, and not all members have the same function, so in Christ we who are many are one body, and each member belongs to one another.We have different gifts according to the grace given us. If someone’s gift is prophecy, let him use it in proportion to his faith

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Intheair View Post
                      I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:12-14)

                      Since Paul is reaching back to Adam and Eve it is an indication he is referring to all women and not just those of that culture, and because he points out the fact that Eve was the one deceived, he strengthens the reason a woman should not be in authority over a man. So no, I would not place myself in submission to a woman pastor. 1Cor 11:1-16 further elaborates on this matter of authority.
                      This is the "traditional" line of thinking. It's partly based on a misinterpretation of these verses, which I'll be getting to shortly. But to think that males are somehow immune to deception by other males, not only doesn't make sense, it contradicts what the Bible teaches. The entire Bible continually warns both men and women to beware lest they be led astray. The facts are that 99% of false teachers in both the OT and NT are males.

                      For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: - Tit 1:10 KJV
                      Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. - Tit 1:11 KJV


                      When Paul refers to the circumcision, he's referring to the male Jewish religious leaders. Paul calls them deceivers. These were the false teachers and troublemakers of the day. See also Acts 11:2, 1 Thess 2:14-15, Gal 2:11-13, Titus 1:9-14, etc. It's almost always religious leaders who subvert the truth. Even in our day, the majority of religious leaders are males.

                      You've brought up another subject, which is the place of the pastor in the organized church system today. Huge problems there as well.
                      Last edited by Watcher; May 21st, 2018, 11:52 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                        Yes, it really is that simple. Women are allowed to teach and to learn, but they are not to be over men in the heirarchy of the church. Because that's what it clearly says in these verses.
                        So who do they teach? Younger women and children.
                        Again, this and the hierarchy idea are "traditions". If someone doesn't want to be taught about God from the lips of a woman, then he better rip the entire chapter of Proverbs 31 out of his Bible for a start:

                        THE WORDS of king Lemuel, THE PROPHECY that HIS MOTHER TAUGHT HIM. - Pro 31:1 KJV

                        After that, he might want to remove the words of Mary in Luke 1, the words of Hannah in 1 Sam 2, etc. See also Post #8 http://www.rr-bb.com/forum/enter-the...d-genesis-3-16


                        Again, it doesn't make any sense to think that men can be deceived by a female teacher but women and children can't. And if that's the case, why should women be allowed to teach the most impressionable of all........ children? This is erroneous traditional thought, and not Scripturally supported in any way.

                        In fact, some legitimate scholarship suggests that the book of Hebrews was written by Priscilla. It's also widely believed that it was Mary the mother of Jesus who was the source of most of Luke's information in his gospel account.



                        Next - Paul's unique writing style, 1 Timothy 2:11-15

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          So to recap, Arkie Tuzi, looking at the broad context of 1 Timothy through Paul's eyes rather than "tradition", we find that it is about Warfare:
                          • The instructions set forth are not meant to show us how to set up our "church services" or a "hierarchy", but to show us how men and women, the "troops", are to conduct themselves as they both wage war against the enemy. Post #'s 10, 16
                          • The numerous distinctions Paul makes are primarily age-related. Post #10
                          • Learning sound doctrine protects both men and women from being led astray and leads to godliness. Post #'s 14,18
                          • We have to look deeper than the translated English words to find the true meaning of what is written. The words of Bible translators, no matter which version, are not "inspired", or God-breathed, and some are outright biased, 2 Peter 3:16. Post #'s 15, 19, 20
                          • One reason for learning sound doctrine is to teach it to others, 2 Tim 2:2, regardless of gender. Post #17
                          • Males, not females, were to tackle the male "beasts" and "deceivers" that Paul was warning them about. Post #'s 19, 20, 21
                          The bias against women in church leadership existed in Paul's day just as it does today. Paul fought against it in Ephesus just as he did in Corinth. In both locations, some were attempting to exclude and silence women.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. - 1Ti 2:11 KJV
                            BUT I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. - 1Ti 2:12 KJV
                            FOR Adam was first formed, then Eve. - 1Ti 2:13 KJV



                            And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. - 1Ti 2:14 KJV

                            Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. - 1Ti 2:15 KJV



                            It's critical to keep in mind that Paul has some unique habits in the way he writes. At times, he goes back and forth between two subjects in the same passage. His writing style reminds me of two fast-moving trains traveling next to each other on parallel tracks. Paul jumps back and forth between these two trains. Although they're going the same direction, you have to stay with him or you won't know where he is at any given moment. This is important to know because once you know it, his writings become more clear. This is one of the reason some of his writings seem confusing or hard to understand, 2 Peter 3:16. He can be talking about more than one subject at a time.

                            In verses 11 -13 we see another structural element at play, as in Post #18. Notice that in verse 12, Paul begins with the word "But". This is a clue that he is now diverting to a different but related subject, he's jumped over to the other train. In verse 13 he continues the same thought by the use of the word "For". In that light then, v 13 simply clarifies v 12. Paul is simply continuing his thought about the Rules of Engagement.

                            For the male to exercise church discipline is the proper order because it was Adam who, being formed first, was charged with GUARDING the Garden, Gen 2:15. This was the established pattern from the beginning. It was the man's responsibility to protect the garden from internal and external threats before the woman was even created, but he failed.



                            Next............. deception.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                              This is the "traditional" line of thinking. It's partly based on a misinterpretation of these verses, which I'll be getting to shortly. But to think that males are somehow immune to deception by other males, not only doesn't make sense, it contradicts what the Bible teaches. The entire Bible continually warns both men and women to beware lest they be led astray. The facts are that 99% of false teachers in both the OT and NT are males.

                              For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: - Tit 1:10 KJV
                              Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. - Tit 1:11 KJV


                              When Paul refers to the circumcision, he's referring to the male Jewish religious leaders. Paul calls them deceivers. These were the false teachers and troublemakers of the day. See also Acts 11:2, 1 Thess 2:14-15, Gal 2:11-13, Titus 1:9-14, etc. It's almost always religious leaders who subvert the truth. Even in our day, the majority of religious leaders are males.

                              You've brought up another subject, which is the place of the pastor in the organized church system today. Huge problems there as well.
                              No one is denying the fact that men can be deceived as well. Perhaps it is to be taken that women are more susceptible to deception than men?
                              The fact is though, because Paul used that as a basis for women not to have authority over men, it should carry Divine weight, unless we are going to question Paul's authority...I'm not.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                                For the male to exercise church discipline is the proper order because it was Adam who, being formed first, was charged with GUARDING the Garden, Gen 2:15. This was the established pattern from the beginning. It was the man's responsibility to protect the garden from internal and external threats before the woman was even created, but he failed.
                                He may have failed in his duty, but he was not deceived, he willingly disobeyed, that is the issue. Sound teaching involves rightly dividing truth from deceptive error.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X