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  • Would I be in rebellion to God's Word If.....

    I attended a church with a female pastor leading it?

  • #2
    I wouldn't go, but that's me.

    " I have had an increasing burden to engage in some down and dirty, street evangelism." March 6, 2010

    Isaiah 6:8 I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “ Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

    Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

    Matthew 22:9 NIV
    'So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’


    I'm praying for you daily!
    I get my Bibles here

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    • #3
      Why wouldn't you? Can you explain please?

      Comment


      • #4
        Scripture is quite clear that pastor's are to be male. So if there is a female pastor then the whole church is disobeying Scripture...if they disobey in one area then more likely they are disobeying in other areas too. Why would one want to attend a church that is rebelling against God?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sonshine777 View Post
          I attended a church with a female pastor leading it?
          No you wouldn't be in rebellion to God's Word, Sonshine 777, but you would be in rebellion to the "traditions of men".

          Comment


          • #6
            This is God's Word on the subject:
            "Let a woman quietly recieve instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." I Timothy 2:11-12

            The only way I could see a church being led by a female pastor and in accordance with God's Word is if the only people attending it are women and children.

            Comment


            • #7
              1 Tim 2:12 is one of the classic verses about women that are taken entirely out of context and twisted. This is God's Word on that subject:

              "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. - 2Pe 3:14 KJV

              And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; - 2Pe 3:15 KJV

              As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2Pe 3:16 KJV

              Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, BEWARE lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. - 2Pe 3:17 KJV

              But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen. - 2Pe 3:18 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                1 Tim 2:12 is one of the classic verses about women that are taken entirely out of context and twisted. This is God's Word on that subject:

                "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. - 2Pe 3:14 KJV

                And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; - 2Pe 3:15 KJV

                As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2Pe 3:16 KJV

                Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, BEWARE lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. - 2Pe 3:17 KJV

                But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen. - 2Pe 3:18 KJV
                I don't see anything about the role of women in the church mentioned in any of the verses that you quoted, but since you want context, let's look at context and background. Paul is writing to Timothy on the organization of the church in this epistle. Immediately before talking about women in church, Paul talks about how men are to behave in church. Later he talks about the qualifications for bishops (also translated overseers) and deacons.

                I Timothy 2:7-3:7
                7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
                Chapter 3
                1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

                8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."

                It seems quite clear to me, from the context of this passage that God wants men to lead the church.

                But there is also a passage, I Corinthians 14:34-35, if there is any doubt about what women should be doing during church:

                "34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."

                I'll grant that this passage is about maintaining order within the church service, and preventing outbursts, but both of these passages are quite clear in their wording and context about the role of women in the church, and it is not one of leader.
                Last edited by ArkieTuzi; May 13th, 2018, 11:00 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                  I don't see anything about the role of women in the church mentioned in any of the verses that you quoted,
                  Note the underlined words. The warning to beware of being led astray with the error of the wicked applies to "all" of Paul's epistles and what he's written about.

                  "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. - 2Pe 3:14 KJV

                  And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother
                  PAULalso according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; - 2Pe 3:15 KJV

                  As also
                  IN ALL [his] EPISTLES speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2Pe 3:16 KJV

                  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, BEWARE lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. - 2Pe 3:17 KJV

                  But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen. - 2Pe 3:18 KJV


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                    but since you want context, let's look at context and background. Paul is writing to Timothy on the organization of the church in this epistle.
                    Yes, I know, the idea of "church organization" according to "gender" is the traditional "framework" for the so-called "pastoral" epistles. Fortunately, it's not correct. Some of the things that contribute to the current lack of understanding about these passages concerning females are the failure to make distinctions in marital status and distinctions in the age differences that are clearly laid out in the Scripture, along with the failure to properly comprehend the account of The Fall.

                    It's critical to distinguish between male and female age differences in these epistles because that's what the Scripture does (1 & 2 Timothy, Titus especially) It might help if you could visually see how males and females are not all lumped together by gender, but are distinguished according to ages. My list below shows only the direct references to the distinctions of age in males and females that I could find in 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus. Keeping in mind that THE CONTEXT of these epistles concerns ADHERING TO SOUND DOCTRINE IN THE MIDST OF SPIRITUAL WARFARE which takes place on the battleground of the church leadership (1 Tim 1:18, 20, 5:15, 6:12, 2 Tim 2:3, 4, 26, 3:6, 4:7), the age distinctions represent troop divisions.
                    The Troops

                    Male and Female Leaders and Leaders-in-Training
                    1 Tim 2:15 Females of childbearing [5042] age Specifically childbearing age
                    1 Tim 4:7 Old Females [1126] Specifically refers to ungodly fables
                    1 Tim 4:12 Young [3503] Male Specifically Timothy
                    1 Tim 5:1 Older/Senior [4245] Males In general
                    1 Tim 5:1 Young [3501] Males In general
                    1 Tim 5:2 Older/Senior [4245] Females In general
                    1 Tim 5:2 Young [3501] Females In general
                    1 Tim 5:9 Older Females- under age 60 and over age 60 [1835/2094] Widows- past childbearing age
                    1 Tim 5:11 Young [3501 Females Widows-childbearing age
                    1 Tim 5:14 Young [3501] Females Widows-childbearing age
                    1 Tim 5:17 Older/Senior [4245] Males and Females In general
                    1 Tim 5:19 Older/Senior [4245] Males and Females In general
                    2 Tim 3:15 Baby [1025] Male Specifically Timothy
                    Titus 2:2 Old [4246] Males In general
                    Titus 2:3 Old [4247] Females In general
                    Titus 2:4 Young [3501] Females Single or Married – Childbearing Age
                    Titus 2:6 Young [3501] Males Single or Married
                    Last edited by Watcher; May 16th, 2018, 03:29 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Say, does anyone know if it's possible to "highlight" text in a post? I couldn't find anything on that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think it matters if they are male or female as long as they speak Bible truth

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Watcher, the idea that this passage only refers to women of child bearing age is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Only women of child bearing age are to behave and dress modestly, with good works as their beauty? Seriously? I suppose if one reaches menopause, then one can just let it all hang out! After all, childbearing age is over, and by your assertion this passage only refers to that time period.

                          But that is not what this passage says. And that is not what the passage in 1st Corinthians says, either.

                          ETA:The reference to bearing of children refers not to age but sphere of influence, and is a nod by Paul to the godly women who raised Timothy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post
                            Immediately before talking about women in church, Paul talks about how men are to behave in church. (Post #8)

                            Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                            Watcher, the idea that this passage only refers to women of child bearing age is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Only women of child bearing age are to behave and dress modestly, with good works as their beauty? Seriously? I suppose if one reaches menopause, then one can just let it all hang out! After all, childbearing age is over, and by your assertion this passage only refers to that time period.

                            But that is not what this passage says.
                            Arkie Tuzi, it appears you misunderstood what I said.

                            The idea is that these young Christians will grow and mature in their faith and become leaders for the next generation. They will become the examples to follow. Paul addresses the menopause age bracket in 1 Tim 5.

                            The context of this passage shows that Paul is speaking primarily to young people. These are men and women who are professing godliness, v 10. Godliness is also another theme running through this epistle. The word professing, means to promise or assert something. This group has not yet been proven but is in the process. They have committed to and are in training to become spiritual leaders (See Ephesians 4)


                            Up to this point, Paul has cast out the enemy, the false teachers Hymenaeus and Alexander, he's secured the perimeter with prayer, and now begins to address the troops. These are the men and women of God, engaged in the warfare that Paul has spoken about.

                            It is not just women who are professing godliness, nor is it just women who are encouraged to do good works, nor is it just men who are to pray and have holy hands. Both men and women are doing these things, v9 ...in like manner also. Paul is simply pointing out specific pitfalls that each gender is more inclined to.

                            Young men are more prone to what Paul calls wrath and doubting. Doubting, or in the Greek dilogismos, is translated as reasoning in Luke 9:46, where we see the male disciples reasoning among themselves who should be the greatest. In Luke 9:31-32, they were so obsessed with their own standing in the kingdom they thought was upon them, they couldn't absorb what Jesus was telling them about His upcoming death! This was even after they saw the transfiguration of Jesus, v 3! We see the same thing in Matt 18:1. In Matt 20:20-28 we see the male disciples who enlisted their mother to approach Jesus about their positioning. They were jockeying for position in the Kingdom. In verse 24, we see how the other 10 were moved with indignation, a violent, physical feeling of displeasure. Then we see the Jewish religious leaders being called out by Jesus in Matt 23 for their hypocrisy and strong desire to be seen as prominent and powerful in the eyes of the people. Then there's Mark 9:33-37, where we again see them disputing about who should be the greatest. This still goes on today in the organized church system. Men want to be in control and have the upper hand. This goes against the teaching of Jesus Christ. It's of the world and has no place in the kingdom of God or the true church.

                            Young women are more prone to focus on their outward appearance. Young women should dress modestly, not with clothes that reveal every detail of their bodies. Shamefacedness means to have a sense of honor and respect for others. When a woman dresses in revealing clothing, she is actually showing disrespect for others and she will not gain respect in return. This is typically an issue with young women, not old women. Sobriety means self-control and sound-mindedness. Women can get more easily overcome with emotion than men do. Overly fancy, jewel encrusted hair-do's and expensive, ostentacious outfits are designed to attract attention. This isn't what godliness is about, just as jockeying for position isn't what godliness is about. The commonality in both gender issues, is that they are self-focused and indicate a desire to seek the approval of others, rather than of God.

                            It's not just women, but BOTH men and women who are to be conspicuous in doing good works (Matt 5:16, Eph 2:10, 1 Tim 5:25, 6:18, 2 Tim 3:17, Tit 2:7, 2:14, Tit 3:8, 3:14, Heb 10:24, 1 Pet 2:12), not conspicuous in being seen as prominent or beautiful. Paul is simply making a distinction between the worlds standards and God's standard.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ArkieTuzi View Post

                              Later he talks about the qualifications for bishops (also translated overseers) and deacons.


                              Chapter 3

                              1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

                              8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."

                              It seems quite clear to me, from the context of this passage that God wants men to lead the church.
                              If you look up the Greek words in this passage, you will find that the Greek word for "male" [435] aner, never appears. In verse 1, the word translated as "man" is [1536] ie tis, and means if "any, whoever, whosoever", either male or female. Neither does "he" appear in the text.

                              In verse 2, "the husband of one wife", is simply a reference to the requirement that a male overseer not be a polygamist, which was allowed in that culture, and most likely not unlawfully divorced. You will find the same thing in 1 Tim 5 where Paul states that a female elder who is a widow must have been the wife of one man....."having been the wife of one man". Again, most likely not unlawfully divorced, as women typically weren't guilty of polygamy.

                              There's nothing in this passage that requires an overseer to be a male. Paul could have easily used the word aner, but he didn't.

                              In the deacon passage, verse 8, it says "men of dignity". But the word "men" doesn't exist in the Greek text, it's an insertion by the translators of the NASB. The only actual word there is "dignity", In the KJV it's translated as "grave", "likewise must the deacons be grave". The word "men" in verse 10 is also an insertion. We also see in that passage, verse 11, that a reference is made to "women" deacons. In the KJV, it states "...must their wives". The words "must their" are insertions into the translation and do not exist in the Greek text. The word translated as "wives" in the KJV is the same word translated elsewhere as "women". The NASB version you posted above has translated the word correctly as "women", not "wives".


                              "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; - Rom 16:1 KJV

                              Note that the Greek word translated in this verse as "servant" is [1249] diakonos. This is the exact same word used in 1 Tim 3:8, 12 where it is translated as "deacon". the above verse can equally be translated as,

                              "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a deacon of the church which is at Cenchrea;" - Rom 16:1 KJV
                              Last edited by Watcher; May 16th, 2018, 03:38 PM.

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