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Desire for her husband; Genesis 3:16

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  • #16
    You know, this subject can be complicated. This might be a good time to clarify a couple things.

    1. Who and what did God actually curse?
    He cursed the Serpent, Gen 3:14, "because thou hast done this, thou art cursed...".
    And He cursed the ground, Gen 3:17, "cursed is the ground for thy sake".

    God never cursed the man or the woman.

    So in post #2, I should have said that the domination of women by men was sinful and a result of the Fall/Sin, not a part of the curse.
    ​​​​​​
    2. Domination of women by men goes against the mandate of God who gave dominion to both the male and female over the creation. God never changed this mandate, nor did he ever tell the man to rule the woman.

    Also, to clarify, when I said that male domination over women was sinful, I was referring to sinful oppression, abuse, etc. But I don't think that's the only thing God was referring to when he spoke to the woman. Although surely that would be included as a manifestation of sin, I believe He was also referring to the natural state of men, who, rather than women, would have more power/position in the world. This has always been the case. Men are physically stronger and don't get side-lined with the infirmities women endure for those 40 or so child-bearing years. Unfortunately, because of sin, not all, but many men choose to abuse their power and position. In the days of Israel's kings, for example, there were good and evil rulers, although most were evil.



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    • #17
      Not to complicate the subject further, but as a side note the curse on the ground was lifted after the flood; therefore the discipline against the man of having to sweat and toil just to get food is no longer in effect. Man's directive went back to the original command - to "tend the garden" or build something up out of what God has provided. God saw that man would not seek God for his basic needs (or at all) and just turned to evil and violence in order to get what he needed. I think this goes along with what you are saying here. That what God put on Adam & Eve was discipline for training, not necessarily punishment/curse. So that would also support what you explained earlier about women being subject to men (often abusively against God's intention) because her strong desires for him left her vulnerable to be ruled by him, actually meant by God for sanctifying (leading and training in righteousness) her as Jesus sanctifies His Church,
      Last edited by triedbyfire; April 19th, 2018, 07:17 PM.

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      • #18
        It's hard to keep up with all the different subjects coming up and I'm not sure where to dive in. But, for a start.......could you explain how/where the curse on the ground was lifted? Although not everyone is in the agriculture business today, farmers still have to cultivate, weed, and feed the ground to produce crops. Most people have to work to eat and most have struggles to deal with in their employment.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by triedbyfire View Post
          . He doesn't appear to be saying God does not permit it. I don't think I'm grounded enough yet in a study of scripture on this particular subject but am leaning toward it being Paul's preference and not a direct prohibition from God..
          Not wanting to change the subject of the thread either, my comment was simply why the topic had arisen for me. However, if your above statement is true, then Paul was not writing under the instruction of the Holy Spirit. God either said it all, or He didn't. I believe He said it all, including a woman not teaching men. That is why the qualifications for all elders are all clearly referring to men. But as I said, don't want to go off topic.
          For Thou art my hope, Oh Lord God Psalm 71:5
          Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it to the day of the Lord Philippians 1:6


          MY TABLET CANNOT TYPE OR SPELL

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          • #20
            Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

            22 “As long as the earth endures,
            seedtime and harvest,
            cold and heat,
            summer and winter,
            day and night
            will never cease.”

            The curse of the soil no longer exists. Yes, man still must "till" the soil and be productive, but no longer in virtual futility as in pre-flood days.

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            • #21
              Everything in scripture is inspired but not everything in scripture is prescribed for every person. Should we all drink wine when we have a stomach issue because Paul said it to Timothy? Paul was speaking to a specific church with specific issues speaking about his specific preferences in regard particular problems.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by triedbyfire View Post
                Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

                22 “As long as the earth endures,
                seedtime and harvest,
                cold and heat,
                summer and winter,
                day and night
                will never cease.”

                The curse of the soil no longer exists. Yes, man still must "till" the soil and be productive, but no longer in virtual futility as in pre-flood days.
                That's interesting ......
                "And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed." Gen 5:29

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                • #23
                  Exactly. There's a lot in Genesis. So packed with info. Good catch. Now man's work should be ordained as service to God in some way, whether as a Missionary, corporate job, farmer, wherever God leads. And God promises to provide our needs.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by so-blessed View Post

                    Not wanting to change the subject of the thread either, my comment was simply why the topic had arisen for me. However, if your above statement is true, then Paul was not writing under the instruction of the Holy Spirit. God either said it all, or He didn't. I believe He said it all, including a woman not teaching men. That is why the qualifications for all elders are all clearly referring to men. But as I said, don't want to go off topic.
                    We know that the entire Scripture is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But not every principle/instruction in the Bible is meant for everyone/every time.

                    The biggest problem I see isn't that, but rather in the area of interpretation/translation. Peter tells us directly in 2 Peter 3:16 that in all of Paul's epistles specifically, there are things that are hard to understand. I have found that most of these difficult passages have to do with women. Peter warns us that some will wrest (twist) the meaning of these particular passages. It's a very serious issue. Even Bible translators are guilty of this, as are teachers, preachers, speakers, writers, etc.

                    That's why we need to be Berean's and check things out for ourselves. Our challenge today, and in every generation, is to correctly decipher the meaning of those hard to understand passages, rather than take someone's word for it.

                    These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. - Act 17:11 KJV

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                    • #25
                      And while i'm thinking of it, and not to add another subject to the list, but it's not just those hard to understand passages that get twisted. I sat through a sermon one time where the preacher attempted to convince everyone that Jesus turned water into grape juice, not wine.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                        And while i'm thinking of it, and not to add another subject to the list, but it's not just those hard to understand passages that get twisted. I sat through a sermon one time where the preacher attempted to convince everyone that Jesus turned water into grape juice, not wine.
                        Lol, been there. I'm from the South where dancing can get you kicked out of a congregation.

                        it seems that in these last days the camp is being split into two sections: those who are receiving deeper understanding of God's Word and a more earnest drive to take in all that God can teach them ; and those who are stuck in the mode of following books, pastors, philosophies that sound similar to the truth, but won't actually accept truth. God wants to be known and I can't get enough of Him.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Watcher View Post

                          We know that the entire Scripture is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But not every principle/instruction in the Bible is meant for everyone/every time.

                          The biggest problem I see isn't that, but rather in the area of interpretation/translation. Peter tells us directly in 2 Peter 3:16 that in all of Paul's epistles specifically, there are things that are hard to understand. I have found that most of these difficult passages have to do with women. Peter warns us that some will wrest (twist) the meaning of these particular passages. It's a very serious issue. Even Bible translators are guilty of this, as are teachers, preachers, speakers, writers, etc.

                          That's why we need to be Berean's and check things out for ourselves. Our challenge today, and in every generation, is to correctly decipher the meaning of those hard to understand passages, rather than take someone's word for it.

                          These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. - Act 17:11 KJV
                          Amen! 😊

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                          • #28
                            Here's an example of an often twisted verse.

                            "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful MEN, who shall be able to teach others also." - 2Ti 2:2 KJV

                            Some try to say that this verse proves that only males can learn Truth and teach it to others. However, a simple study using a concordance, which anyone can do, reveals that the Greek word translated as "men" in this verse does not mean "male".

                            The Greek word for "male" is aner. If Paul wanted to prohibit females from teaching the Truth to others, he could have easily used the word aner here, but he didn't. The word he did use is anthropos. Anthropos does not mean "male", it means a "human being". Therefore the admonition given by Paul is for all humans, not just males.

                            Now compare this verse:

                            But he answered and said, It is written, MAN shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Mat 4:4

                            The Greek word translated here as "man" is the exact same Greek word translated as "men" in 2 Tim 2:2, which is anthropos, a human being. Now we wouldn't say that it's only males that should not live by bread alone, would we?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Watcher View Post
                              Here's an example of an often twisted verse.

                              "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful MEN, who shall be able to teach others also." - 2Ti 2:2 KJV

                              Some try to say that this verse proves that only males can learn Truth and teach it to others. However, a simple study using a concordance, which anyone can do, reveals that the Greek word translated as "men" in this verse does not mean "male".

                              The Greek word for "male" is aner. If Paul wanted to prohibit females from teaching the Truth to others, he could have easily used the word aner here, but he didn't. The word he did use is anthropos. Anthropos does not mean "male", it means a "human being". Therefore the admonition given by Paul is for all humans, not just males.

                              Now compare this verse:

                              But he answered and said, It is written, MAN shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Mat 4:4

                              The Greek word translated here as "man" is the exact same Greek word translated as "men" in 2 Tim 2:2, which is anthropos, a human being. Now we wouldn't say that it's only males that should not live by bread alone, would we?
                              I agree with your post here.

                              However, in light of this, I still think we should take into consideration what is being said in 1 Timothy 2:12; considering also what is expressed in Titus 2:3-5 (to be addressed to "the aged/older women").

                              All believers, male and female, should be able to teach others "Truth," as this is not limited to males (per 2 Timothy 2:2).

                              We see an example of a woman doing this properly in Acts 18:24-26 (and I've read that Priscilla's name was mentioned first [in the Greek], in that, she may have been the primary speaker... I'm not sure of this):

                              24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

                              25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

                              26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

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                              • #30
                                Hi acceptedintheBeloved, yes, I agree that we do have to consider all the scriptures on such an important subject. Please let me clarify my reference to "truth". Truth includes the teachings of Paul, which are specifically being addressed in 2 Tim 2:2. He makes no gender distinctions in either teaching or receiving sound doctrine. But, whoever they are, they must be leaders who are "faithful" to the truth of the Word of God because they will be teaching it to others. All Believers should be seen as either leaders or leaders-in-training.

                                As we well know, not everyone is faithful to the Word of God, but may be faithful to what someone else has said, which may not be true. There have been many "traditions" as well as lies, etc., introduced into the church just as there were in Jesus' day via the Pharisees and other religious leaders. Paul gave examples of false teachers in his day who were not "faithful", for example, these two men:

                                "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1:19-20 KJV

                                Another verse which makes no gender distinctions in teaching others is:

                                "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God: and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." Heb 5:11-12 KJV

                                Here, the writer expresses frustration over those who are "dull of hearing", and not learning. In this example, the point of learning sound doctrine is to "teach" it, just as in 2 Tim 2:2.

                                Although 2 Tim 2:2 and Heb 5:11-12 are easy to decipher, verses like 1 Tim 2:12 are where we run into trouble. That verse is one of several "hard to be understood" passages which come under the warning in 2 Peter 3:16. Rather than jump to a conclusion that contradicts the rest of Scripture, and automatically silences more than half the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit no less, we should attempt to understand the true meaning.

                                Titus 2:3-5 presents a picture of older women setting an example for younger women to follow, teaching them by example, their "behavior". (Likewise young men need to be taught as well, Titus 2:2, 6). Along with that there should be actual doctrine taught, of course, because correct, godly behavior springs from sound doctrine. However, there is no prohibition here against women teaching doctrine to men.

                                I have found that 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus are actually studies in "age" distinctions rather than "gender" distinctions.

                                Also, there's another tradition which I think you were referring to regarding Priscilla and Aquila that states that a woman can teach a man as long as another man is present. They call that a "covering". There really isn't any biblical basis for that though. Priscilla and Aquila were a "team", that's all. They are always mentioned together. They even worked together. It really wouldn't have mattered if Priscilla was by herself teaching Apollos. The point was that Apollos was strengthened in his knowledge of God and because of that went out and "taught others" rightly, 2 Tim 2:2! There was no need for Priscilla to "dumb down" or check her mind at the door.

                                When I think of a "covering" I'm reminded of when Barak told Deborah that he wouldn't go into battle without her, even though the battle was commanded by God. Why did he think he needed her "covering"? He had faith, Heb 11:32. But we see that it was God's intention to sell the enemy into the hand of a woman. Imagine that! What a great story, designed to "teach" us by example, Rom 15:4. Jael, a woman of the tent (housewife), slew her husband's ally when he wasn't home. Yikes, she didn't even ask his permission......scandalous! (I'm being facetious) Yet, Jael is praised and blessed above women in the tent and immortalized in the Holy Scripture as an example of someone who feared/loved God more than man. Wouldn't you have liked to see the look on Heber's face when he arrived home from work that day?



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