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  • Originally posted by Patreesha View Post
    Rosh Hoshanah is on September 21/22 of this year, NOT the 29th as erroneously stated above.

    And BTW, I do believe that the Revelation 12 sign is important for us. In Genesis, God said that the stars were for signs and seasons, so why shouldn't we think otherwise? First the Rapture, then the star sign signalling Jacob's Trouble.
    Jack's article was from 2011 - The last time September hype made a big splash. It's worth reading again.

    And for us, the Revelation 12 signs will be witnessed from New Jerusalem.
    sigpic
    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


    Comment


    • Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
      The first one is the rapture of the Church, covered in Rev. 4-5. Next comes the initial appearance of the anti-Christ which will kick off Danielís 70th Week, a seven year period that immediately precedes the 2nd coming (Daniel 9:24-27).

      [...]

      Just before the Great Tribulation begins, the events of Rev. 12 will take place.


      So to summarize, prior to Rev. 12 the Church has to be raptured, the anti-Christ has to be revealed and be nearly finished consolidating his control over Planet Earth, a Temple has to be built and become operational in Israel, 1/3rd of the worldís population has to have died, and a thick pall of smoke has to have settled over Earth reducing the light reaching it by 1/3rd. Now you can see why I say Rev. 12 can not happen on Sept 29th of this year. In fact itís fulfillment is at least 3 Ĺ years away.
      Revelation 12 is definitely telling of the mid-trib events.

      The one question some of us have is whether "the male" (the woman gave birth to in the past [from that perspective in time]) is referring only to Jesus, or if it might be possible that it could refer to "the Church" (which is His body, Eph 3:22-23, Eph 5:30, Col 1:24, Rom 12:5, 1 Cor 10:17, 12:12-13, 18, 20, Eph 4:4 ['one hope of your calling,' is referring to our Rapture, as I understand it, and that Rapture is to a purpose]). Especially in light of Rev 2:26-27.

      My thought has been that "signs" occur ahead of actual events (and are intended for Israel in the trib). Perhaps just like we [some of us anyway] can "see" this info via online programs ahead of its actual time, people can also view it after it has taken place (and probably moreso now these days due to computer technology, that in years before, say, 2010 or whenever that particular program was made--in the same way that we usually think that 'before TV's were invented, it was hard to grasp how Rev 11:9-10 would be fulfilled literally,' and now we can see how). So I'm thinking of it kind of in that way. Definitely mid-trib events, with "the male [G730]" [no 'child' in verse Rev 12:13] born at some time in the past from the mid-trib perspective in time, could that possibly be referring to the first line I copied of J. Kelley's quote? Especially since Rev 12:5 uses the word "harpazo" and that was never used of Jesus' ascension (which His disciples visibly viewed Him going up, "while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight" Acts 1:9)



      ETA: just to be clear, I believe the Isa 26:19-20 events (the passage I referred to in my other post) are describing Israel in mid-trib (some take that to be our rapture, but I disagree with its being used in that way).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post

        The one question some of us have is whether "the male" (the woman gave birth to in the past [from that perspective in time]) is referring only to Jesus, or if it might be possible that it could refer to "the Church" (which is His body, Eph 3:22-23, Eph 5:30, Col 1:24, Rom 12:5, 1 Cor 10:17, 12:12-13, 18, 20, Eph 4:4).
        The reference is to Christ, no dual meaning involved. No "if's, and's, or but's."
        sigpic
        Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

        Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
          The reference is to Christ, no dual meaning involved. No "if's, and's, or but's."
          I didn't see your post until after I had added (in my post): "Especially in light of Rev 2:26-27"... which also says "even as I have received of My Father". IOW, He [Jesus] will "give them authority over the nations"... "even as I [Jesus] have received of My Father." So isn't this referring to the Church, to whom He also gives authority over the nations?


          I hope my post on the last page didn't cause confusion, when I used the words "dual meaning" (about a different passage).

          Here, in Rev 2:26-27, it seems to show that He is having others involved in His exercise of ruling (in the MK)... and the "thrones" in Rev 4:4 (24 elders upon 24 "thrones") seem to be there for "throne" purposes (1 Cor 6:2, 3). [so definitely "pre-trib" here]

          Comment


          • Originally posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
            I didn't see your post until after I had added (in my post): "Especially in light of Rev 2:26-27"... which also says "even as I have received of My Father". IOW, He [Jesus] will "give them authority over the nations"... "even as I [Jesus] have received of My Father." So isn't this referring to the Church, to whom He also gives authority over the nations?


            I hope my post on the last page didn't cause confusion, when I used the words "dual meaning" (about a different passage).

            Here, in Rev 2:26-27, it seems to show that He is having others involved in His exercise of ruling (in the MK)
            Your mixing timing and contexts. Rev. 12 refers to a woman (Israel) birthing Christ alone. The MK hasn't started yet. And the Church's role in the MK was a paranthetical reference in Rev. 2.

            I will now add "especially in light of" to "if's, and's and but's"....
            sigpic
            Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

            John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

            Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


            Comment


            • I keep editing (adding to) my post, before I see yours, Steve53. (I'm slow at editing. ). All that to say, I had added to my last post, the following:


              "and the "thrones" in Rev 4:4 (24 elders upon 24 "thrones") seem to be there for "throne" purposes (1 Cor 6:2, 3). [so definitely "pre-trib" here] "

              Comment


              • Originally posted by acceptedintheBeloved View Post
                I keep editing (adding to) my post, before I see yours, Steve53. (I'm slow at editing. ). All that to say, I had added to my last post, the following:


                "and the "thrones" in Rev 4:4 (24 elders upon 24 "thrones") seem to be there for "throne" purposes (1 Cor 6:2, 3). [so definitely "pre-trib" here] "
                There is plenty of support to believe the 24 Elders represent the Church post rapture. There is however no symbolism implied or otherwise in Rev. 12 that includes the church.
                sigpic
                Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                  There is plenty of support to believe the 24 Elders represent the Church post rapture.
                  Yes, agreed. And my non-pre-trib friends do not believe it is the Church (and/or that this is depicting "pre-trib" as in pre-70th-Week), so they inquire, 'if the 24 elders on 24 thrones represent "the Church," where and how does it say [anywhere] that they got there?' and I say, they were 'caught up [harpazo'd] to His throne' (we can say this exegetically, rather than have it be merely inferential... is my thought... and was apparently the thoughts of William Kelly, William Blackstone, Harry A Ironside, and others of that era, before the 'exegetical' reasons were tossed aside in the 1900's by other dispensationalists like Hal Lindsey and so forth, who all kept the 'inferential' arguments, but which are ones that no one outside the 'pre-trib' group are convinced by ).

                  [some scholars also point out how Revelation may be written in the form/structure of a chiasm (like many OT passages, and some having to do specifically with the 70 Weeks prophecy re: Israel), with Rev 12 being the center of that... so that's an additional consideration when viewing its topic; Dan 7:13-14 also]


                  Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion, and the opportunity to give this general topic some thought. Thank you, Steve53!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                    Jack's article was from 2011 - The last time September hype made a big splash. It's worth reading again.

                    And for us, the Revelation 12 signs will be witnessed from New Jerusalem.
                    The New Jerusalem doesn't happen until after the Millennium with the New Heaven and New Earth. No more signs needed then!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by USCG_Vet View Post
                      BorrowedTime and Shonsu,

                      When I read Isaiah 66, it reads as if he is prophesying about the end times:
                      Again it should. The End times are the finishing of the Jewish prophecies to be made complete. I am hoping you find lots of connections between Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jesus' End Time Warnings and Revelation 4-the end.

                      He starts out describing Heaven and earth and a place of rest for Him already exists, created with His own hands.
                      [This "place of rest" is described below and in Acts 7 44-50 references back to Isaiah 66 and proves God doesn't rest in places made by Man's hands!]
                      Then the Lord talks about those who do evil and did not answer when he called.
                      Then the Lord goes back and talks about those who "tremble at his Word".
                      We are starting to mix up the who what when where why's. And the reason for the similarities in Acts and Isaiah. Israel is still being given a chance to accept Christ as God in the Flesh. In the Grace of God He still is allowing them to accept Christ and usher in the end of Daniel's 70th week. In Acts 7:44-50 Stephen is making his final plea to them to accept Christ. Stephen is precisely wedged between the End of Mosaic Law/Start of Daniel's 70 or Age of the Gentiles. Because of Saul being one of the witnesses to Stephens death and his rankings in the Pharisees this is one of the reasons Saul got a huge wake up call.

                      Here is where it gets interesting:
                      A noise from the city... The only clue we have so far is that this is the place of rest that the Lord created with His hands in verses 1 and 2 above.
                      Then the sound is from a temple, the voice of the Lord... Same clue that this is the place of rest that the Lord created with His hands in verses 1 and 2 above!

                      I guess many teachers say that this is the Temple Mount in old Jerusalem? I disagree because of Acts 7 and the rest of the passage...
                      It would be a huge error to scriptures to think God never dwelled in a temple or king or prophet. Just not the "everyday man" which changed when after Christ Resurrected the Veil was split. We (as the Body of Christ) have no Holy Land because through the redemptive process of Christ we are made Holy.

                      Now we have a "she" pronoun used to reference the place of rest that the Lord created with His hands in verses 1 and 2 above.
                      The "she" pronoun gives birth to a "male child" early and before "her" birth pains [or tribulation].

                      [I say Galatians 4 can be used here which says that "she" is New Jerusalem and that "she" is the "Mother of us all"]
                      Why do I say Galatians 4 can be used here? Because of the rest of the passage in Isaiah 66!
                      In Galatians Paul is making "legal" arguments regarding the where we are now to those who wanna live in the past. He using common terminologies and scriptures these people are well familiar with to lead them to Christ. It's the same manner in which we read the O.T to see who Jesus truly was, what He did for us.


                      We then learn that the "male child" is a whole nation, even from the earth (dirt), so dead people are "born" too...
                      The we learn that the "male child" is altered by definition to "children".

                      Now we get a description of a Jerusalem that is very interesting:
                      "With the abundance of her glory." A very happy place to be, rich with motherly love.

                      Even more this Jerusalem will have a large flowing crowd of people referred to as Gentiles using the word "glory" to describe them as well.
                      It will also be peaceful. Those who live there will be as if they are babies cared for by a loving mother.

                      I don't think the old Jerusalem will be a peaceful place until after New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven...!
                      Something tells me old Jerusalem will be just the opposite of peaceful, even during the Great Tribulation!
                      Lord help you if you have a baby in old Jerusalem when the anti-Christ defiles the Temple... Because you need to flee!
                      It just doesn't sound like He's talking about the patch of dirt and rock between Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea.

                      Later on the Lord goes into describing a terrible wrath against His enemies.
                      "For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh;
                      And the slain of the Lord shall be many"
                      This has got to be the end. Wrath and then Judgement!

                      Then even further He talks about "the new heavens and the new earth".

                      How is Isaiah 66 referring to old Jerusalem?
                      The entire picture painted in my mind as I read Isaiah 66 is about the end!

                      I mean, we even have a picture of Revelations 12 in the middle of the Chapter...?
                      Revelation 12. Jacobs trouble. Isaiah. Jacobs Trouble. Yup similarities there should be abundant.

                      I'm a member of the Body of Christ. I am not a member of any Tribe of Israel.
                      Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Patreesha View Post
                        The New Jerusalem doesn't happen until after the Millennium with the New Heaven and New Earth. No more signs needed then!
                        You're confused about a couple things....https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...new-jerusalem/
                        sigpic
                        Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                        John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                        Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Patreesha View Post
                          Rosh Hoshanah is on September 21/22 of this year, NOT the 29th as erroneously stated above.

                          And BTW, I do believe that the Revelation 12 sign is important for us. In Genesis, God said that the stars were for signs and seasons, so why shouldn't we think otherwise? First the Rapture, then the star sign signalling Jacob's Trouble.
                          Now take the dreams of Joseph. Twelve stars sun and moon and sky. We know clearly Joseph is talking in regards to Israel. We also know Revelation is Daniel.

                          Israel was constantly chastised by God/Christ for needing signs. We in the church age live by faith.
                          Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BorrowedTime View Post
                            Now take the dreams of Joseph. Twelve stars sun and moon and sky. We know clearly Joseph is talking in regards to Israel. We also know Revelation is Daniel.

                            Israel was constantly chastised by God/Christ for needing signs. We in the church age live by faith.
                            Yes! The Revelation 12 sign is for Israel. We would be out of here by then.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Patreesha View Post
                              Yes! The Revelation 12 sign is for Israel. We would be out of here by then.
                              Ok. Pretty much I think we are on the same page.

                              Should be well before sept 23rd if this thing is indeed Revelation 12
                              Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                                Folks - There are increasing numbers of rabbit holes being dug in this thread that have nothing of importance at the bottom. If we continue dissecting every "what if, maybe" that comes along, all we're going to end up with is confusion.



                                From Jack Kelly in 2011 -
                                WHY SEPT. 29 WILL NOT FULFILL REV. 12


                                A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

                                Judging by the questions Iíve received, a youTube video and an online article have apparently convinced a lot of people that the fulfillment of Rev. 12 and the rapture of the Church will both occur on Sept 29th of this year, which is the annual celebration of Rosh Hashanah, also known as the Feast of Trumpets. Can this be true?
                                While Sept. 28-29 are the scheduled dates for Rosh Hashanah this year, and while the rapture could happen on any given day, Rev. 12 definitely can not be fulfilled on Sept. 29, nor on any other day this year or the next or the one after and hereís why.
                                Rev. 12 speaks primarily of three things. The first is an overview, given in signs, beginning with the time of the Lordís birth. John used symbolism from Josephís 2nd dream (Genesis 37:9-11) to identify the pregnant woman in Rev. 12:1-2 as Israel (represented by Mary) about to give birth to the Messiah. An enormous dragon, identified as Satan in Rev. 12:9, was there waiting to devour the child the moment He was born. This means that from the beginning the Messiah was born to die, and when He did He was taken up to Godís throne. We know this as His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. (Rev. 12:1-6)
                                Next, Rev. 12:7-9 tells of a coming war in Heaven where Satan and his angels will be defeated and driven to Earth. Rev. 12:10-12 announce the commencement of the Lordís reign over Earth, although from Heaven.
                                Third, in Rev. 12:13-16 we see that Satan and his angels will immediately go after the believing Jewish remnant who will flee into the desert east of Israel.
                                The reason for Satanís attack is that according to Hosea 5:15 the Lord is waiting for the Jews to petition His return, so if Satan can wipe them out before they can do so he will have won. But the Lord will protect His people and prevent their demise. Enraged, Satan will then go after the Lordís other followers, the gentile Tribulation believers.
                                All these things take place in Rev. 12. So how has the idea that this will all be fulfilled on Sept. 29 gained traction?
                                Hereís Where It Gets A Little Spooky

                                Most of us know about a comet called Elenin that has entered the solar system and will pass by planet Earth at about 22 million miles in mid October. Proponents of the Sept. 29 Ė Rev. 12 view are combining the appearance of Elenin with the astrological signs of the Zodiac to proclaim the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. To see how they do this, letís take a quick look at Josephís dream.
                                Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. ďListen,Ē he said, ďI had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.Ē
                                When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, ďWhat is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?Ē His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind. (Genesis 37:9-11)
                                Now letís compare Rev. 12:1-2:
                                A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
                                Finally, hereís their interpretation. During the second half of September, Elenin will be in the constellation of Virgo, the virgin. The sun will also be in Virgo, so the woman (Virgo) will be clothed with the sun. At the same time, the moon will be at the feet of Virgo. During the latter part of September, Elenin will move up the face of Virgo to a place where it would almost appear to be tears coming from Virgoís eye as if sheís crying out in the pain of child birth. Then Elenin will move further up Virgoís face to rest on the top of her head, like a crown. All of this will fall into place on September 29, 2011.
                                Proponents of this view say this is what John was pointing to in describing the woman of Rev. 12 the way he did, and say it will be the fulfillment of Johnís prophecy.
                                It is true that Luke 21:25 says the End Times will be accompanied by signs in the Sun, the Moon, and the stars. But itís also true that by and large Revelation is a chronological book. Otherwise, tribulation believers would not be able to tell what would be coming and when. Since the Book was primarily written to explain end times events to people on Earth at the time, if it isnít chronological it couldnít fulfill its purpose and would have no value to them.
                                But the Revelation is chronological, so before Rev. 12can take place, the first 11 chapters have to be fulfilled. Three of them are the introduction and the seven letters to seven Churches, so what are the events mentioned in Rev. 4-11 that have to precede Rev. 12?
                                Preconditions For Rev. 12

                                The first one is the rapture of the Church, covered in Rev. 4-5. Next comes the initial appearance of the anti-Christ which will kick off Danielís 70th Week, a seven year period that immediately precedes the 2nd coming (Daniel 9:24-27). It will also mark the beginning of Godís time of wrath. War will break out over 1/4th of the world. Runaway inflation will make food the most valuable commodity on Earth, and millions will become sick or die for lack of it. The systematic execution of post-rapture believers will begin and a giant earthquake will shake the whole world. These events are detailed in the Seal Judgments of Rev. 6.
                                Although not specifically mentioned thus far in the book of Revelation, we know from Daniel 9:27 that early in the 70th Week a temple will be built in Israel as a result of their return to their Old Covenant relationship with God. Jesus (Matt. 24:15) Paul (2 Thes. 2:4) and John (Rev. 11:1-2) all confirm this.
                                After the 6th Seal, the Lord will commission 144,000 Jews to spread the gospel. Many more believers will be martyred as a result of their evangelistic efforts and will start showing up in Heaven (Rev. 7)
                                Soon afterward a second round of judgments, called the Trumpet Judgments, will begin. These judgments will be even more catastrophic and before theyíre over 1/3rd of the world will be aflame, 1/3rd of the oceanic waters will be contaminated, and the light of the sun, moon, and stars will be reduced by 1/3rd.
                                A plague of demonic locusts will afflict the people and put many in agony so great theyíll long for death, and in the Far East territorial wars will kill 1/3rd of the Earthís remaining inhabitants (Rev. 8-9).
                                These events will unfold during the first half of Danielís 70th week. When those who survive the Seal and Trumpet judgments refuse to repent of their rebellion against God (Rev. 9:20-21), the stage will be set for the 3rd and final round of judgments.
                                This round is called the Bowl judgments. They will take place during the Great Tribulation, a 3 Ĺ year period of catastrophic judgment more devastating than anything the world has ever seen. Itís the last half of Danielís 70th week. Just before the Great Tribulation begins, the events of Rev. 12 will take place.
                                So to summarize, prior to Rev. 12 the Church has to be raptured, the anti-Christ has to be revealed and be nearly finished consolidating his control over Planet Earth, a Temple has to be built and become operational in Israel, 1/3rd of the worldís population has to have died, and a thick pall of smoke has to have settled over Earth reducing the light reaching it by 1/3rd. Now you can see why I say Rev. 12 can not happen on Sept 29th of this year. In fact itís fulfillment is at least 3 Ĺ years away.
                                How Could This Happen?

                                So how could an idea like this one become so easily accepted by so many? Itís because as a Church we are a people of zeal without knowledge. For several generations now our leaders have consistently misinformed and misled us and weíve been too lazy to search the Scriptures on our own to see if the things theyíre teaching us about the End Times are true. As a result some who should know better can be fooled into believing that applying astrology to the interpretation of Scripture is a legitimate approach, even though its practice was a sin in Old Testament times (Lev. 19:26 KJV).
                                Some of us want the rapture to come so badly that weíll believe anything weíre told that points to an early fulfillment even though itís certain to result in disappointment. Sure the Bible says thereíll be signs in the sun, moon, and stars, but there have always been such things, and history has shown that seeing them is no excuse for ignoring sound doctrine. These signs are meant to support what the Bible says, not replace what it says.
                                This is an application of Paulís warning that in the last days people would not put up with sound doctrine but would gather around themselves teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Tim. 4:3-4)
                                So when someone comes out with a new idea based on eclipses, or comets, or even Scripture, donít assume heís done his homework. And that includes articles you find on this site. Do what Paul told you to do and search the scriptures daily to prove whether these things be true (Acts 17:11).
                                As the time grows shorter there will be all kinds of false information bombarding us. Some will be out of ignorance and some will be out of malevolence. Either way you could easily become confused or discouraged. Do your homework. Make sure you understand why no part of Danielís 70th Week, which begins in Rev.6, can take place until the Church is gone. And above all, donít let the current fixation on the Feast of Trumpets distract you from the fact that the rapture of the Church could happen on any given day, including all the days before and after Sept. 29. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times...ulfill-rev-12/
                                Thank you Steve53. Too late---I have been very confused by all the information posted on this thread recently when I started looking at it two days ago (I have not read through the whole thread, just recent postings). Jack Kelly's article has helped to put things into perspective. Thank you for this clarification.

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