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Some teach that Pre-tribbers are misleading us

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  • #31
    It's been said before, but worth repeating: God should just give everyone the rapture they desire. One thing that post-tribbers seem to so easily forget is that the church, right now, is very heavily persecuted. More Christians have given their life for Christ in the last 100 years than the previous 2000 combined. If it is persecution and ultimately martyrdom they seek, they need only go to the closest communist or islamist country. Fortunately a person's views on the end times are not factored into his or her rapture status. I'm sure they'll be very glad to be wrong about this one.
    Ephesians 3:17-18
    That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

    "It is by faith alone we are saved, but not by faith which is alone."

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    • #32
      Originally posted by steve93138 View Post
      Post-trib and pre-trib are both wrong. Just as Noah and Lot were spared from God's wrath, so shall we be. Be prepared to die and be sheep as the time will come when God will separate us from the goats through tribulation.
      Who is it that controls the first half of the trib directly? Here's a hint: God. God will not crucify His Son twice, nor is Jesus a wife beater. You seem to be on a similar path as Moses; he struck the rock twice, and look what happened to him.

      Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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      • #33
        It's been said before, but worth repeating: God should just give everyone the rapture they desire. One thing that post-tribbers seem to so easily forget is that the church, right now, is very heavily persecuted. More Christians have given their life for Christ in the last 100 years than the previous 2000 combined. If it is persecution and ultimately martyrdom they seek, they need only go to the closest communist or islamist country. Fortunately a person's views on the end times are not factored into his or her rapture status. I'm sure they'll be very glad to be wrong about this one.
        Should God give me besides the timing of the rapture whatever I want? There is such a thing as a "rapture status?" I am puzzled as to where the Biblical line of thought is going on this thread.

        The church has always been persecuted. The church however is comprised of those who have made a choice: to repent, receive salvation, and spread the the news that there is a way out of all of this, and that yes, spread the Good News that He is coming back and he gave plenty of warnings of what was going to happen. There is in reality is no such thing as a "person's views" when considering the Second Coming. This is not at all about a "multiple choice answer to the question" view when concerning the Rapture. There is only one answer to the rationale, and Jesus was very clear about that in Matthew 24. There will be a "sealing away" before the prophetic week starts, that is why Jesus mentioned the "times of Noah" would be like "times of the Son of Man" when concerning end time prophecy. There is a direct correlation between the two events.

        Maybe the problem is with those who believe in other views other than pre-tribulation also the inability to believe there was also a flood at one time. Maybe it is a mindset that is going on that "once persecuted, always persecuted, and will continue to be persecuted." Maybe the problem does reside in the question of repentance and salvation for those who choose to embrace views outside of pre-tribulation. I am here because of a message of repentance, salvation, biblical teaching that He is coming, to spread the Good News to others and to "Watch".

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        • #34
          My BIL follows a guy named Paul Bortolazzo...he has written a series of books. He is a pusher of the 6th seal rapture but the thing that disturbs me the most about this guy. my BIL is always posting his "quotes" on facebook all the time. Just like Rick Joyner (NAR false prophet) claims that the pre-trib teaching is a doctrine of demons and the pastors that teach this are doing the devils work. He also claims that the falling away is not the rampant apostasy as we are seeing right before our eyes via the massively growing emergent, seeker senstive, purpose driven, false lying signs and wonder and lying prophets and apostles trying to pass itself off as christianity---but the "falling away" is caused by those believing the pre-trib rapture are going to fall away from the faith and lose their salvation and take the mark of the beast. He literally teaches you that true born again beleivers can and will lose their salvation and will spent eternity in hell because they will take the mark. and don't dare disagree with Paul Bortolazzo, there is no reasoning from the scriptures with him... either you believe his views 100% or you are of the devil. they are all crawling out of the woodwork. anybody else come across this guy??

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          • #35
            Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
            Wait - Baxter? Irwin Baxter?!

            Just waiting for TBN shows starring Rick Warren, Nostradamus and a goat.
            Oh no!! Not them again!!
            Psalm 30:11-12 (New King James Version)

            11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing;
            You have put off my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,
            12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to You and not be silent.
            O LORD my God, I will give thanks to You forever.



            Pre-Flood!
            Thanks for the citizen title Hoot!

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            • #36
              The Antichrist will be a "poser":Matthew 24:5, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

              1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

              THE Antichrist will appear as a "Lamb":
              Daniel 8:25, 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

              He will "prove" himself by working "miracles", 2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

              The Tribulation begins when THE antichrist signs a 7 year peace treaty with Israel. Daniel 9:27 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

              Before THE Antichrist can even begin to carry out his evil plans, The Restrainer must be removed. The only One who can restrain evil is God (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) The Holy Spirit lives inside all born again believers. We must be taken out of the way, or THE Antichrist will be unable to have free reign upon the earth. People can still be saved during the trib, but that is a different discussion.

              If you study these Scriptures carefully, it should become clear that post-tribbers, or pre-wrath-ers would be in more danger of accepting THE Antichrist than pre-tribbers.

              The only way I will know the REAL Jesus is when I am instantly "changed" and I meet Him in the clouds. All born again believers, no matter what they think will happen, or which rapture belief they hold, will be changed, and caught up to meet Jesus before the Tribulation begins, end of story. The Scriptures make it clear.

              Come soon Lord Jesus!
              I stand with Israel, now and forever.
              Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Steve53 View Post
                Got me a little confused too.

                The first part - minus the strike through - - - couldn't agree more.

                The second part - - were you being facetious and "quoting" a mock post-tribber?

                And the part I struck through - If the post and pre positions are both wrong what do you think is the correct view? A mid rapture? No rapture? Please clarify for us.
                There is tribulation and there is wrath. They are two different things. I want to believe in a pre-trib view and did for many years, but after looking into this further, I'm not so sure. I know Jesus won't beat his bride, but he wouldn't be doing that if there is tribulation - that would be the world beating the bride. God will take us away and then begin the outpouring of his wrath. Pre-wrath is what I'm getting at and I know this is a pre-trib board so I will probably have to go into that other forum here to discuss it... Pre-wrath is a hard pill to swallow and if this view turns out to be incorrect, then Amen, rescue me from man's tribulation.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by steve93138 View Post
                  There is tribulation and there is wrath. They are two different things. I want to believe in a pre-trib view and did for many years, but after looking into this further, I'm not so sure. I know Jesus won't beat his bride, but he wouldn't be doing that if there is tribulation - that would be the world beating the bride. God will take us away and then begin the outpouring of his wrath. Pre-wrath is what I'm getting at and I know this is a pre-trib board so I will probably have to go into that other forum here to discuss it... Pre-wrath is a hard pill to swallow and if this view turns out to be incorrect, then Amen, rescue me from man's tribulation.
                  No, it isn't the trib of man, read Revelation, Who is directly controlling the events of the first 3 1/2 years? It's God, not man. Further, the rapture is an imminent event, pre-wrath would be predictable.

                  Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by steve93138 View Post
                    Pre-wrath is what I'm getting at and I know this is a pre-trib board so I will probably have to go into that other forum here to discuss it... Pre-wrath is a hard pill to swallow and if this view turns out to be incorrect, then Amen, rescue me from man's tribulation.
                    Mid-trib/pre-wrath are both the same thing and both are incorrect. The topic has been covered exhaustively here and the simple facts are that there is no other view that makes sense in keeping with a literal reading of scripture.

                    “When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” Dr. David L. Cooper
                    1 Thes. 4:16-17, Romans 5:9, 1 Thes. 1:10, 1 Thes. 5:9, John 14:2-3

                    How so do you read the above verses?
                    Last edited by Steve53; September 22nd, 2013, 08:01 PM.
                    sigpic
                    Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

                    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

                    Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


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                    • #40
                      It's like the post tribbers ears are closed.

                      Because there is "One Thing" they cannot reconcile.

                      Here it is: Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

                      If we are Raptured at the end of the Tribulation there would be no one left who could repopulate Earth during the Millenium.

                      John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by steve93138 View Post
                        There is tribulation and there is wrath. They are two different things. I want to believe in a pre-trib view and did for many years, but after looking into this further, I'm not so sure. I know Jesus won't beat his bride, but he wouldn't be doing that if there is tribulation - that would be the world beating the bride. God will take us away and then begin the outpouring of his wrath. Pre-wrath is what I'm getting at and I know this is a pre-trib board so I will probably have to go into that other forum here to discuss it... Pre-wrath is a hard pill to swallow and if this view turns out to be incorrect, then Amen, rescue me from man's tribulation.
                        Anything other than Pre-Trib and requiring us to be purified by the Trib is the real Hard pill to swallow.

                        Because when a Christian states that we as Christians need further purifying they are stating Christ's Sacrifice wasn't enough and we must endure God's Wrath to be worthy is pure Blasphemy in my view.

                        Outside of Jesus Christ's Death and His shed Blood there is nothing else we could never ever do to ever make ourselves acceptable in God's Eyes and worthy to enter Heaven.

                        Christ said it and paid it in full!

                        John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
                        John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.Matthew 5:23-24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

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                        • #42
                          I agree with all of you. We do not need further purification by enduring God's wrath. His work is indeed finished. Amen!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by waiting1 View Post
                            It's like the post tribbers ears are closed.

                            Because there is "One Thing" they cannot reconcile.

                            Here it is: Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

                            If we are Raptured at the end of the Tribulation there would be no one left who could repopulate Earth during the Millenium.

                            This is correct!
                            Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
                            Coming again coming again maybe morning maybe noon maybe evening and maybe soon!
                            Coming again coming again O what a wonderful day it will be! Jesus is coming again!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by steve93138 View Post
                              I agree with all of you. We do not need further purification by enduring God's wrath. His work is indeed finished. Amen!
                              Quit sidestepping. The first half of the trib is also controlled by God, so you do envision Jesus as a wife beater, and also a God that doesn't keep His word. He teaches an imminent rapture, you teach a rapture that can be predicted. There's a problem there that you cannot get around.

                              Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Theophorus View Post
                                I'm pre wrath myself, since the first portion of the tribulation is not God's wrath.
                                Wrong, wrong, wrong.

                                The so-called "Pre-wrath" Rapture theory is based on a lot of errors. It isn't Biblically sound.

                                The Rapture will occur before the start of the 7-year Tribulation period.

                                It's true that the Rapture occurs before God's wrath is poured out in the book of Revelation. But -

                                The Bible says "tribulation" & God's "wrath" occur during both the first and last halves of the 7-yr. Tribulation period (Daniel's 70th week)

                                So the true "pre-wrath rapture" view IS the Pre-Trib Rapture view, because God's wrath begins to be poured out at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.

                                The last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week are called "The Great Tribulation." (See Matthew 24:15-21.)

                                Therefore some say it's wrong to refer to the whole 7 years as "the Tribulation period." They think "tribulation" and the pouring out of "God's wrath" are restricted to the last 3 1/2 years. People who accept the so-called "pre-wrath rapture" theory often say this.

                                But the Bible says that both "tribulation" and the pouring out of God's "wrath" happen in the first half of the 7 years as well as in the last half.

                                Here are quotes from a paper by Dr. Thomas Ice:

                                Rosenthal [an advocate of the so-called pre-wrath rapture theory] made the following statement: "The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103).

                                My concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?

                                The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word "tribulation" is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08).

                                This is not the case since Matthew 24:9 is an instance where "tribulation" (kjv = "afflicted") refers to the first half of Daniel's 70th week.

                                Dr. John McLean explains:

                                Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false.

                                A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel.

                                Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: "Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (nasb).

                                Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.

                                http://www.raptureready.com/featured...ureTheory.html

                                The so-called pre-wrath rapture theory also tries to say that the "wrath" of God isn't poured out until the latter part of the 7 years. They try to argue that there's no wrath of God poured out in the first half of the 7 years. Wrong again.

                                Another quote from Dr. Ice's paper:

                                God's Wrath

                                Van Kampen [an advocate of the so-called pre-wrath rapture theory] defines only the final quarter of Daniel's 70th week as the only time of God's wrath. He sees the first three quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. But does the Bible make such distinctions? It does not!

                                Wrath in Zephaniah

                                Zephaniah 1:14-18 heaps together a cluster of terms that characterize the future Day of the Lord. Verse 14 labels this time as "the great day of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord." Then verse 15-18 describe this time with the following descriptions: "that day is a day of wrath," "a day of trouble and distress," "a day of wasteness and desolation," "a day of darkness and gloominess," "a day of clouds and thick darkness," "a day of the trumpet and alarm," "I will bring distress upon men," and "the day of the Lord's wrath." The context supports the notion that all these descriptives apply to the Day of the Lord. Such biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the Day of the Lord into compartmental segments as Van Kampen insists. The text plainly says that the Day of the Lord is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath. All of the many descriptives in this passage provide a characterization of the Day of the Lord that applies to the entire seven-year period. The Zephaniah passage clearly contradicts the basis upon which Van Kampen attempts to build his recently developed theory. Zephaniah is not alone in providing an obstacle to the Van Kampen speculation.

                                Wrath in Revelation

                                Revelation 6:1-17 records the six seal judgments, which are the first reported judgments of the tribulation. Revelation 6 and the seal judgments also contradict the Van Kampen formulation since the Bible describes all six judgments as ". . . the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come . . ." (Rev. 6:16c-17a). Even though Van Kampen cannot recognize God's wrath, the unbelievers at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation will be able to. Revelation 5 reveals that only the Lamb (Christ) was qualified to open the seals that would begin the first judgments of the tribulation. As we connect the dots of Revelation 5 and 6, there is no basis for saying that the events of the seal judgments are somehow disconnected from Scripture's characterization as God's wrath. The following observations about the seal judgments support such a connection:

                                • The Lamb is the Individual Who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. These are explicit references to the wrath of God, not the wrath of man or Satan as taught by Van Kampen.

                                • One quarter of the earth's population is killed (Rev. 6:8).

                                • The fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity, which has to be considered the wrath of the Lamb. God allows this to occur when the Lamb breaks the seal in this part of the seal judgments.

                                • At the end of the six seal judgments an assessment is given as follows: "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16-17). "Him that sitteth on the throne" is God the Father as indicated in chapter 4, thus it is clearly God's wrath. It is also the Lamb's wrath (Christ). The passage clearly says "the great day of his wrath is come," meaning that all six of the seal judgments are classified as God's wrath.

                                Van Kampen attempts to say that the events of the seal judgments are not really "God's" wrath, but the wrath of man. Rosenthal declares, "The word wrath occurs eight times in the book of Revelation. All eight occurrences follow the opening of the sixth seal. The word wrath is never used in connection with the first five seals" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 176).

                                Rosenthal neglects to tell his readers that Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments. In spite of the Van Kampen claim to follow the plain interpretation of the text (Van Kampen, Rapture Question, p. 23-24.), I believe that Revelation 6:16-17 relates to all six seal judgments for the following reasons:

                                First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

                                Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place"[2] Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.

                                Third, Revelation 5 narrates a heavenly scene of Christ pictured as a slain, but victorious Lamb. The Lamb is pictured as worthy to open the seals on a scroll, which result in judgment-the judgment described in the succeeding chapter as the seal judgments. In chapter 6, each one of the seal judgments commences as a result of the Lamb's breaking of each seal (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12). Since all six seal judgments begin the same way, with the breaking of the seal by the Lamb, one should not be at all surprised that Revelation 6:16-17 summarizes all six judgments as "the wrath of the Lamb," and "the great day of his wrath." This cannot be the wrath of man or Satan.

                                The above information provides ample biblical proof that all six seal judgments are the wrath of God (Lamb).

                                Since all six seal judgments are designated in Scripture as God's wrath it means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is called the wrath of God in Revelation 6.

                                Therefore, this passage does not support the Van Kampen interpretation. Since the church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9, and Rev. 3:10), it is clear in light of Revelation 6 that the church will be raptured before the seventieth week of Daniel.

                                http://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html

                                Don't be deceived by the so-called "pre-wrath" rapture theory. For good Pre-Trib rapture resources, go to:
                                http://www.pre-trib.org


                                Here's an excellent verse-by-verse series by Dr. Robert Dean on the book of Revelation.
                                You can look up any verse in Revelation that you've been told supports the so-called Pre-Wrath Rapture, and find out what that verse really means.
                                Free audio: http://deanbible.org/andromeda.php?q...4+-+Revelation
                                Free notes: http://www.divineviewpoint.com/sane/dbm/Revelation.html
                                (These notes are detailed but aren't exact word-for-word transcripts, so listen to the audio to get the full version.)


                                Here’s more info about problems with the so-called pre-wrath rapture theory:

                                The Pre-Wrath Rapture View
                                by Dr. Renald Showers of Friends of Israel
                                http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_P.../BP4W0304A.pdf

                                An Analysis of the Use of Cosmic-Sign Passages by Proponents of the Pre-Wrath Rapture Theory
                                by Dr. Mike Stallard
                                http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/vie...rapture-theory

                                Is the Pre-Trib Rapture a Satanic Deception?
                                by Dr. Thomas Ice
                                http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...ibRapturea.pdf

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