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  • #31
    5For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:

    6The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;

    7Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;

    8Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.


    I am not an authority on Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38 or anything but here is what I have thought up....
    I know in the Ezekiel prophecies it lists nations whose names are no longer the same like Persia is now Iran. So in Psalm 83 when it mentions the various peoples that will form a confederate agaisnt Israel (Edom,Ishmaelites,Hagarenes,Gebal,Ammon,Amalek,the Philistines and the inhabitants of Tyre) is it safe to say that the names given represent a specific people of today and that if that is the case the names given dont seem to match up to the names given in the Ezekiel prophecy so with the absence of countries like Russia wouldnt it be safe to assume that Psalm 83 speaks of a different prophecy of events? That are maybe much closer to fulfillment with what is currently going on with Israel and its Arab neighbors?

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    • #32
      After Psalm 83 there will be no need for the present wall.

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      • #33
        http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=89869

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        • #34
          I adhere to the advice to read the Bible without any outside influence on what it is suppose to say.
          And a very hearty amen to that statement!

          In this regard, I challenge anyone to provide a single detail from the Hebrew text of Ezekiel 38 and 39, (in context with the book as a whole and particularly in context with the five previous visions given to the prophet on the night before word arrived that Jerusalem had fallen to the Babylonians) that supports a premillennial as opposed to postmillennial fulmillment of the Gog-Magog invasion described in these chapters.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Arkycharlie View Post
            And a very hearty amen to that statement!

            In this regard, I challenge anyone to provide a single detail from the Hebrew text of Ezekiel 38 and 39, (in context with the book as a whole and particularly in context with the five previous visions given to the prophet on the night before word arrived that Jerusalem had fallen to the Babylonians) that supports a premillennial as opposed to postmillennial fulmillment of the Gog-Magog invasion described in these chapters.

            The best argument that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel is a separate event from the one in Revelation is that Ezekiel says that they will be burning the weapons for 7 years, whereas immediately after the one in Revelation, the earth gets its remodeling job.

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            • #36
              I suppose I would offer up this:

              It doesn't seems appropriate to my feeble mind that Israel would be burning weapons for 7 years at the end of the millennial kingdom because that would mean they are burning the weapons into Eternity, which is not possible. Ezekiel also says they will be burying the dead for 7 months, which I would posit would also carry over into Eternity, and again is not possible.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by rjmamula View Post
                The best argument that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel is a separate event from the one in Revelation is that Ezekiel says that they will be burning the weapons for 7 years, whereas immediately after the one in Revelation, the earth gets its remodeling job.
                Looks like you beat me to the punch,

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                • #38
                  rjmamula
                  Some contend that Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 will precede and be the provocation of Ezekiel 38 & 39. This school of thought points out that Israel's neighboring countries that are mentioned in Psalm 83 are not listed among the countries of the Gog & Magog coalition of Ezekiel. However, the list in Ezekiel contains some very key words: "and many others." Could it be that these other countries are the ones listed in Psalm 83 and that the two wars are one and the same?
                  "Many others" are believed to be the former, and perhaps reunited, satellite nations of Russia. God knows specifically the names of the Arabs nations that surround Israel, as He will see to it that they are destroyed.

                  Some contend that the destruction of the countries in Psalm 83 is a victory of the Israeli army, while the defeat of the Gog & Magog coalition is entirely the work of God without any involvement of the Israeli army. Having read Psalm 83 to try to verify that, I have found no mention of the Israeli army in the psalm. In fact, the author of the author of the Psalm calls upon "God" to defeat them and blow them away. In both passages, the enemy has the same goal: to end Israel's existence as a nation.
                  Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 are two very different events. We dont know for sure the actual cause of the demise of Damascus for example in Isaiah 17, but with Ezekiel 38, God makes it more that clear that it is He, and He alone that destroys Gog and his followers. JMHO, but Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 are the same event.

                  Now for Isaiah 17. This passage says that all of Damascus and most of the rest of Syria will be destroyed and that Israel will be crippled. Reading further, it says that afterward Israel will return to The Lord. That is just what Ezekiel says will happen after the Gog & Magog war. Could all three of these prophecies be part of the same war?
                  Isaiah 17 is not just about the distruction of Damascus, but also Jordan and the West Bank. Israel will indeed suffer greatly, and be left completely helpless. As the nations surrounding Israel are easily drawn in, Psalm 83 occurs at the same time. Just something that struck me...between the two.
                  Psalm 83:13
                  13. O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.

                  And then God does what was requested:

                  Isaiah 17:13
                  13.The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

                  I have read material by prophecy experts (i.e. Grant Jeffrey, John Hagee) in regard to the Gog and Magog war which makes no mention of Isaiah 17 or Psalm 83 being the provocation of this war. Of course, these authors are fallible and I disagree with them on a variety of points.
                  Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83, is the event that has already occurred, setting the stage for Ezekiel 38. An "evil thought" is the first part of a continued explanation as to the Gog invasion. Anger, retaliation...is an "evil thought".

                  Will Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 be necessary to provoke the Gog & Magog war? Well with the way things are shaping up little is needed to provoke the Gog & Magog war beyond an Israeli strike on Iran, which at this point seems inevadible.
                  A strike on Iran, then Damascus, could easily provoke Russia. They are heavily invested in both countries. Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83 lays the ground work, sets the stage for Ezekiel 38.
                  The Holy Spirit is our guide with discernment when studying Scripture. We are all learning. In studying it is of course what God says, but we also have to see what God doesnít say.

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                  • #39
                    BNL - I appreciate your very thoughtful reply on this subject - I feel my opinion is much like yours about not being dogmatic about this. I also appreciate your explanations as to why it most likely is not a precursor to Ezek 38-39.

                    I have been a lot skeptical about the fulfillment of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 being NECESSARY prior to Ezekiel 38-39.

                    I will admit I have not read "Isralestine" which is the most prominent book that outlines this. This book is on my list to get and read - in the meantime I've listened to some of Bill Salus' interviews on the net concerning this subject. I have also noticed a couple of things from those that most strongly promote this scenario from this board:
                    • very broad statements are made and a lot of conjecture is used that may inspire, but for me hasn't proven anything or for that matter convinced me it is highly plausible or necessary
                    • comments are made like "Psalm 83/Isaiah 17 WILL happen before Ezek 38-39 or ARE separate events, etc" and then not back it up with scripture or a reasonable explanation as to why that is.


                    Now, this may be a reflection of those making statements on this board and not Bill Salus who has set forth these ideas in his book.

                    If I later become convinced otherwise, I will most publicly let you all know. In the meantime, I will remain a bit skeptical and will continue reading and studying these texts.
                    John 14:6
                    Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

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                    • #40
                      4EverHis - I've more fully read your reply and you did give several comments with scripture. I was a bit tired last night and probably should not have responded for that reason alone.

                      What I was trying to say, is I'd like more scripture and reasoning concerning "timing" of Psalm 83 / Isaiah 17 event(s). For instance in the Ezek 38 war, as pointed out by another poster, we can know a time frame just because of the burning fuel and burying bodies. These are the type of references or proof I'm looking for. So far, I haven't seen this in scripture or in anyone's posts on the subject. Perhaps I've missed it?
                      John 14:6
                      Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mensh View Post
                        4EverHis - I've more fully read your reply and you did give several comments with scripture. I was a bit tired last night and probably should not have responded for that reason alone.

                        What I was trying to say, is I'd like more scripture and reasoning concerning "timing" of Psalm 83 / Isaiah 17 event(s). For instance in the Ezek 38 war, as pointed out by another poster, we can know a time frame just because of the burning fuel and burying bodies. These are the type of references or proof I'm looking for. So far, I haven't seen this in scripture or in anyone's posts on the subject. Perhaps I've missed it?
                        Hi Mensh, Scripture does tell us that Isaiah 17 / Psalm 83 occurs before Ezekiel 38. As mentioned before, the invading followers of Gog, are not the same as those mentioned in Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83. God is very specific with listing those nations involved with the Ezekiel 38 battle. God knows the nations involved with Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83, but He does not list them at all in Ezekiel 38. These invading forces led by Gog, have to pass through and would very much effect, the nations surrounding Israel, yet they are not listed by God as being involved because they have already been dealt with in Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83, prior to the Gog invasion. If the nations in Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83 were involved in Ezekiel 38, then God would have listed them and said so, but He doesnít list them. They would join the invasion, but they donít, and thatís because there is but a remnant of them left. Example, Jordan, God specifically knows Jordan, and in Isaiah 17:2, Jordan is pretty much destroyed, ergo God does not list Jordan as being involved in Ezekiel 38.
                        Israel is left very, very damaged and vulnerable after Isaiah 17 / Psalm 83, which sets the stage for the Ezekiel 38 invasion.

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                        • #42
                          I am still holding to the idea that the Church could see Isaiah 17 while it is still here, as God does not indicate His direct involvement in that event. He does, however, make clear his involvement in Ezekiel 38 & 39, making them part of His re-engagement with Israel and the gentile nations.

                          As far as Isaiah 17 being the catalyst for Ezekiel 38 & 39, it's hard to say with certainty, although it is certainly possible. Things are happening so rapidly now, that scenarios can change literally overnight. Russia invades Georgia and within weeks completes alliances with the remaining countries involved with Gog/Magog. Something prophecy students had been looking for for years all lined up in a matter of weeks.

                          How much would an Israeli attack on Iran change things? Would Syria counterattack on Iran's behalf, do something stupid and incur destruction on Damascus? Could happen. But the bigger wild card to me is the rapture. If it happened soon, things would suddenly accelerate at break neck speed.

                          We just don't know.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by heybales219 View Post
                            I suppose I would offer up this:

                            It doesn't seems appropriate to my feeble mind that Israel would be burning weapons for 7 years at the end of the millennial kingdom because that would mean they are burning the weapons into Eternity, which is not possible. Ezekiel also says they will be burying the dead for 7 months, which I would posit would also carry over into Eternity, and again is not possible.

                            Would some one please explain ? I did not know that the millennium was eternity. I did not think eternity started until AFTER the Millennium. When the devil is released from his chains and goes about deceiving the nations , then God puts a quick stop to it He destroys the world with fire and God will create NEW Heavens and a new earth. This is when Eternity begins.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 4EverHis View Post
                              Hi Mensh, Scripture does tell us that Isaiah 17 / Psalm 83 occurs before Ezekiel 38. As mentioned before, the invading followers of Gog, are not the same as those mentioned in Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83. God is very specific with listing those nations involved with the Ezekiel 38 battle. God knows the nations involved with Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83, but He does not list them at all in Ezekiel 38. These invading forces led by Gog, have to pass through and would very much effect, the nations surrounding Israel, yet they are not listed by God as being involved because they have already been dealt with in Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83, prior to the Gog invasion. If the nations in Isaiah 17/ Psalm 83 were involved in Ezekiel 38, then God would have listed them and said so, but He doesnít list them. They would join the invasion, but they donít, and thatís because there is but a remnant of them left. Example, Jordan, God specifically knows Jordan, and in Isaiah 17:2, Jordan is pretty much destroyed, ergo God does not list Jordan as being involved in Ezekiel 38.
                              Israel is left very, very damaged and vulnerable after Isaiah 17 / Psalm 83, which sets the stage for the Ezekiel 38 invasion.
                              4EverHis - thanks for breaking things down a bit more for me. I'm taking a quick break at work, so won't be able to dig in until later tonight. Your first statements do show that these are separate events in scripture.

                              That leaves the deduction that Jordan is not involved with Ezekiel 38 to be a key point in why Ps 83/Is 17 happens first? Still unclear that there is a Biblical point here or just speculation. What if Jordan is having a major crisis or something (pestilence, famine, whatever) that prevents them from participating ins Ezek 38? Just saying, if we are going to speculate we should consider many options.

                              I'll have to delve into this more, but my understanding is that Edom (southern Jordan) will be so desolated so that man will never live there again and it will not be part of the MK. Moab (central Jordan) will be partially destroyed and those that remain will come to salvation and will enter the MK. Ammon will be partially destroyed and will become a possession of Israel and will enter as a nation into the MK. These, of course do not immediately speak to timing either, but if this all hinges on Jordan, than a full study of prophecy concerning Jordan - Edom, Moab and Ammon is necessary. Talk to you again tonight!
                              Last edited by Trust&Obey; April 21st, 2009, 03:54 PM. Reason: confused:) replaced Ps 83/Is 17 with Ezek 38
                              John 14:6
                              Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

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                              • #45
                                Jillian - just a quick reply. Some have said that Ezek 38 is the war that happens when Satan is loosed at the end of the 1,000 years. I think the poster that talked about 7 years burning fuel and 7 months burying bodies was saying that this could not go into eternity. So that proves this is not the same war as at the end of the MK.

                                The 7 years/7months is also used by many (Fruchtenbaum for one) to say that Ezek. 38 needs to happen prior to tribulation. Frucht says 3 1/2 years prior since, he says Jews will be on the run in the last 3 1/2 years of tribulation and will not be concerned with burying bodies or burning fuel. Most agree that if it happens in the tribulation it will have to happen at the very beginning (because they do not see these things going on during the MK). I tend to think it will happen prior to the tribulation but am not dogmatic that it has to be at least 3 1/2 years prior.
                                John 14:6
                                Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

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