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The 144,000 in Rev. 7

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Trance View Post
    Ahhh yes, but they have to be Messianic Jews.
    If they are believers now, they will be Raptured.

    So they will come to faith in Messiah Jesus after that point.
    "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


    Jesus + something = nothing

    Jesus + nothing = Everything

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Trance View Post
      Ahhh yes, but they have to be Messianic Jews.
      They won't have been messianic Jews or they would have gone in the rapture. They will become believers in the Son after the rapture.

      I do believe that they will be well versed in the scriptures of the old testament and will only need enlightenment to believe that Jesus has fulfilled those old testament prophecies.

      I think Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum takes this position as well.
      Eternal life is not a reward for effort. It is a gift to those who trust Jesus.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
        If they are believers now, they will be Raptured.

        So they will come to faith in Messiah Jesus after that point.


        LOL you posted while I was typing!
        Eternal life is not a reward for effort. It is a gift to those who trust Jesus.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post


          The generation that started the State of Israel were not zero years old at that time and they are not sixty now. They are quite a bit older or already passed on. You're assuming that 20 years is a generation. Israeli men of 20 are in the military and it is hard to be married then also. Most wait until after they serve.
          This doesn't quite make sense. I'm 62 and just a few months older than the birth of Israel in May 1948, so, a person would not necessarily be quite a bit older or passed on when at the start of the State of Israel. Anyone born in the few months before that would not be quiete a bit older than Israel. There could be (and I'm sure there are) those born right on the day Isael became a state.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Guy4God View Post
            not given to marriage or sexual immorality
            equals virgin...
            Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

            3 trees

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            • #81
              one thing i don't see being discussed here is that the 144,000 are not all "Jews" -- they are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. That is, these are descendents of ALL the sons of Jacob. "Jews" per se are descendents of only the one son -- Judah ! the northern kingdom of Israel fell away from the faith of the line of David ... there are descendents all over the world, i'm sure, who have no idea that they will be counted among the 144,000. Where on earth are the descendents of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph (Manasseh and Ephraim), and Benjamin ? Judah and Levi are the only ones whose lineage we have even a little idea about ... the rest -- But GOD knows ! GOD knows each one of those 144,000 -- Hallelujah ! and yes I think they will come from all over the globe ... will they be brought to the land of Israel for this mission ? or will GOD have them proclaiming His Word wherever they reside ? we will see ... Deut 29:29
              Prov 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding ...

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              • #82
                3rdWatch Good Point!
                The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me.... Living for Jesus - Listening for the Trumpet

                :snoopy

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Guy4God View Post
                  Just a couple of points y'all...

                  1) The Greek term for virgin and the grammatical use in this passage simply implies young, single men, not given to marriage or sexual immorality. Some people tend to focus on the "virgin" status as something deeper than it really is. They are just young men that God chooses to seal up and use during the trib.
                  Could you elaborate on how the "grammatical use" of παρθενος in this text affects its meaning? Or how παρθενος might suggest anything other than sexually inexperienced?

                  Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
                  Who among the Jewish people does the eunuch thing now?
                  No one that I'm aware of. Celibacy was practiced by some first-century Jewish sects, but gained little traction in mainstream rabbinic Judaism. Talmud says that an unmarried man isn't much of a man at all, and would hold him accountable for failing to fulfill the very first commandment ever issued ("be fruitful and multiply"). Jesus' teaching on the subject is marvelously liberating for those who choose not to marry.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by 3rdWatch View Post
                    one thing i don't see being discussed here is that the 144,000 are not all "Jews" -- they are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. That is, these are descendents of ALL the sons of Jacob. "Jews" per se are descendents of only the one son -- Judah ! the northern kingdom of Israel fell away from the faith of the line of David
                    Your point has validity, but when most of us use the term "Jew" today, including probably all of their enemies, we and they are referring to all of God's chosen people, the direct descendants of Abraham, Isacc, and then Jacob.
                    Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

                    3 trees

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by 3rdWatch View Post
                      one thing i don't see being discussed here is that the 144,000 are not all "Jews" -- they are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. That is, these are descendents of ALL the sons of Jacob. "Jews" per se are descendents of only the one son -- Judah ! the northern kingdom of Israel fell away from the faith of the line of David ... there are descendents all over the world, i'm sure, who have no idea that they will be counted among the 144,000. Where on earth are the descendents of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph (Manasseh and Ephraim), and Benjamin ? Judah and Levi are the only ones whose lineage we have even a little idea about ... the rest -- But GOD knows ! GOD knows each one of those 144,000 -- Hallelujah ! and yes I think they will come from all over the globe ... will they be brought to the land of Israel for this mission ? or will GOD have them proclaiming His Word wherever they reside ? we will see ... Deut 29:29
                      Are you talking about the Two-House, Two-Stick, Ephraimite thing?
                      "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


                      Jesus + something = nothing

                      Jesus + nothing = Everything

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Obadiah View Post
                        No one that I'm aware of. Celibacy was practiced by some first-century Jewish sects, but gained little traction in mainstream rabbinic Judaism. Talmud says that an unmarried man isn't much of a man at all, and would hold him accountable for failing to fulfill the very first commandment ever issued ("be fruitful and multiply"). Jesus' teaching on the subject is marvelously liberating for those who choose not to marry.
                        Thanks! I had never heard of any Jewish eunuchs in this time. The idea of it is so foreign to Judaism.
                        "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


                        Jesus + something = nothing

                        Jesus + nothing = Everything

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Merrily View Post
                          i was thinking about the 144,000 thousand chosen from the 12 tribes of israel to share the gospel during the tribulation. persons born when israel became a nation are in their 60's, their children are in their 40's and their children are in their 20's, approximately at least. if the 144,000 come from the children of the the children, and they are functioning as teachers, rabbis if you will in a way, to be a rabbi you have to be 30 years old. that correlates with why Jesus began his ministry at the age of 30.

                          so, not date setting or anything, but is one of the things that needs to happen that these people need to come of age? just something i was tossing around.
                          No one has ever proven to me through scripture that the 144,000 pure/virgin males were to be preachers or evangelists or rabbis. They have been sealed and protected during the end times (we know that much). One would assume that their protection was to be able to preach during this time, But not one verse "anywhere" states this. I have begged Pastors that preach the 144,000 were evangelist to show the verses that point to where it says what they will do this very thing. Three times now, the Pastors have come back to me and tell me they could not find anything to state they will be the evangelists. If anyone knows of a verse that ties the 144,000 to this job I would appreciate it. It has driven me nuts for years and years. A piece of a puzzle that I have never been able to place. One would think God would be very specific regarding this. I know that He sends Angels to preach his word and to warn people not to take the mark. He sends the two witness to Jerusalem to preach the message, but it does not say He will send the 144,000 to preach his word. At least I have not been able to find it anywhere!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            eyeswideopen - I believe the understanding is made by implication rather than by one verse specifically saying so. An article excerpt by David Reagan:

                            "What is the role of these 144,000 Jews during the Tribulation? What is their purpose? All the text says is that they will be "bond-servants of God" (Revelation 7:3).

                            But the context indicates that they will serve the Lord as evangelists. I say this because their description is followed immediately by the description of "a great multitude which no one can count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" (Revelation 7:9). John sees this great host of people in Heaven standing before the throne of God, and he asks "Who are they, and from where have they come?" (Revelation 7:13). He is told that they are people who have come out of the Great Tribulation who "have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14).

                            In other words, this multitude of Gentiles are those who accept Jesus after the Rapture and who are martyred for their faith during the Tribulation.

                            Because they are placed adjacent to the 144,000 believing Jews, the implication is that they are converted by the Jews during the Tribulation."


                            http://www.lamblion.com/articles/art...evelation9.php
                            "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


                            Jesus + something = nothing

                            Jesus + nothing = Everything

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              i am not sure why i thought you had to be thirty to be a rabbi, i stand corrected.

                              found this online:

                              In Pirkei Avot it says the following:

                              He would also say:
                              Five years is the age for the study of Scripture.
                              Ten, for the study of Mishnah.
                              Thirteen, for the obligation to observe the mitzvot.
                              Fifteen, for the study of Talmud.
                              Eighteen, for marriage.
                              Twenty, to pursue [a livelihood].
                              Thirty, for strength,
                              Forty, for understanding.
                              Fifty, for counsel.
                              Sixty, for sagacity.
                              Seventy, for elderliness.
                              Eighty, for power.
                              Ninety, to stoop.
                              A hundred-year-old is as one who has died and passed away and has been negated from the world.

                              interesting. not sure what the Pirkei Avot is. most likely a rabbinical teaching.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Pirkei Avot (literally, "Chapters of the Fathers," but generally translated as "Ethics of Our Fathers") is one of the best known and most cited of Jewish texts.

                                from the site..My Jewish Learning.

                                sorry if it isn't sited correctly....i am just winging it.

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