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  • #91
    Originally posted by ag_man View Post
    At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they will copulate. But women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.
    Humans will indeed reproduce and birth children after the rapture. See below Scripture references:

    Matthew 24:19

    And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    Luke 21:23

    But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    Mark 13:17

    But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    I never saw anything in Scripture that says children will be snatched away and spared from suffering during the tribulation. When you look at Scripture from the Old Testament, children weren't snatched away or spared during bad times.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by ag_man View Post
      At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they will copulate. But women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.
      Small children neither buy or sell, nor do they worship. The mark won't be necessary for them. Again, the mark is a choice Satan will offer. It will be a clear cut choice: Jesus or antichrist.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by razberry
        Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Wouldn't be the first time.

        The way I see it, being sealed, as we are, means we are saved and eternally secure, bought and paid for with a price, we belong to Jesus and NOTHING can snatch us from His hand. I believe sealed means the same for the 144,000, plus they'll have a visible sign. We and the 144,000 are/will be sealed with the Holy Spirit. I tend to believe the restrainer is the Church, not specifically the Holy Spirit.

        During the trib, believers will have to have faith AND refuse to take the mark in order to be saved. That's what I meant by faith and works. They're not simply saved by having faith but also by enduring to the end by either dying for their faith in Jesus or actually making it thru the 7 yrs without taking the mark (which is highly unlikely for the vast majority). This means it's a new dispensation, imo.

        As far as one's salvation being totally dependent on whether or not they take the mark during the trib, there could be some who have absolutely no faith in Jesus yet still refuse the mark. (Rebels against the NWO perhaps. There are many of them out there now just like this. They hate world gov't but have no faith whatsoever in God.) They'll still die for their rebellion against the AC and they'll still go to hell for their rebellion against God. Simply refusing the mark won't save them. They must have faith and they must refuse the mark in order to be saved.

        I guess I disagree with Fruchtenbaum on this point.
        Again, point to scripture that states believers during the tribulation after accepting Christ can lose their salvation. There is no scripture that states this. Those that knew the Gospel and take the mark were never saved. The Old Testament is clear that once the heart was circumcised in God it could not be reversed, so why would the tribulation be any different??? You are stating that salvation during the tribulation will be contingent upon works, which goes against scriptural teaching of salvation.

        I believe the answer to this lies with Daniel 11:32-33 -

        32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

        33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.

        Those that truly know God will not be tricked or seduced by the antichrist. Again, those that took the mark never knew God.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Gideon300 View Post
          You (Razberry) are stating that salvation during the tribulation will be contingent upon works, which goes against scriptural teaching of salvation.
          Judgment of the Gentiles

          Mat 25:31-33 Gentiles separated into the sheep and goat groups
          Mat 25:34-40 Sheep
          Mat 25:41-45 Goats
          Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

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          • #95
            Originally posted by JFrancisco View Post
            About having children... I'm sure people will, after all children are all taken during the rapture yet when the antichrist marches on jerusalem there will be women with nursing children.
            The bolded above is not supported by scripture as far as I can tell. Many suspect that all children will be raptured, but we don't know that that will be the case.
            Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post
              Judgment of the Gentiles

              Mat 25:31-33 Gentiles separated into the sheep and goat groups
              Mat 25:34-40 Sheep
              Mat 25:41-45 Goats
              Yes, there will be judgement upon works, but salvation is not based on works. We will all be judged upon the works that we did in God's name. The Goats are not Christians. That was my point to Razberry. The notion that salvation can be lost is not found in the scriptures.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Gideon300 View Post
                Again, point to scripture that states believers during the tribulation after accepting Christ can lose their salvation. There is no scripture that states this. Those that knew the Gospel and take the mark were never saved. The Old Testament is clear that once the heart was circumcised in God it could not be reversed, so why would the tribulation be any different??? You are stating that salvation during the tribulation will be contingent upon works, which goes against scriptural teaching of salvation.

                I believe the answer to this lies with Daniel 11:32-33 -

                32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

                33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.

                Those that truly know God will not be tricked or seduced by the antichrist. Again, those that took the mark never knew God.

                Comment


                • #98
                  left behind.

                  i love the left behind books and movies.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post
                    The bolded above is not supported by scripture as far as I can tell. Many suspect that all children will be raptured, but we don't know that that will be the case.
                    David thought so. Along with 2 of the spies all the children were allowed into paradise. What does Jesus say about children and the kingdom?

                    Comment


                    • Just a comment on the faith thing.

                      I have a Complete Jewish Bible. One reason I bought it was to see how a Messianic Jew would translate the New Testament, and I had just gotten started on word studies and looking into the original languages. Stern translates faith many times as trust. Many.

                      I did a word study on it, and indeed, trust can be a replacement to mean faith. I was surprised, and spent a lot of time thinking about this. Why is that? Well, for example, when we have had a personal conversion experience with the Lord and been reborn and we read His Word and know Him, what happens? He authors our faith and we trust Him, or alternatively said, we place our faith in Him. Same idea completely--two words to convey the same meaning. Do you have both faith that a chair will hold you up if you sit in it even if you are not sitting on a chair right now or are even anywhere where there is a chair in sight? Is that because you know that a chair will hold you up based on a prior experience with sitting in a chair, even if you cannot see one right now? Sure, you trust that a chair will do it again, even if you are not presently in the vincinity of a chair.

                      Salvation is always the same. It is through faith, trust that He is exacty who He says He is and did exactly what He said He did. OT Saints were saved by faith on credit, so to speak. The MK will be full of only believers, but as soon as they start having children, they will have to demonstrate their faith by their works. If they do not do the works, it is because they do not have faith, even though Jesus is right there. In other words, they don't want to sit in the chair or even try it out. They like their way of sitting and doing things instead. It doesn't include a chair. Not a perfect illustration---the Lord is so much more than a chair--but the best I can do right now.

                      Believing in the Lord is the work that demonstrates faith. It is the work the Lord calls for in John 6:29. If you don't believe, you don't have faith or trust. When you believe and have faith, you repent and receive the Lord.

                      To say that this---that salvation is always by faith in the Lord----is not the case dismisses where we are told in the Bible that Satan will be loosed again at the end of the 1000 years for a short time and a band of unsaved human rise up with Satan to oppose Jesus, which will not last long, and then we go into eternity. They don't believe it and they like their way better than the Lord. If they believed, then they would have faith.

                      Demons and Satan do know who Jesus is and they know God well. But they don't place their faith in Him or His ways. They still believe that they can outsmart Him and will until they are in the Lake of Fire forever. If they believed, then they would repent.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by razberry
                        Regarding Dan 11:32, the KJV says, "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits." Why does being "strong and doing exploits" equal enduring to the end?

                        Go back two verses to Dan 11:30 "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

                        How can they forsake the holy covenant if they were never in agreement with the holy covenant?

                        I asked Bryan Denlinger, a teacher/pastor who has an excellent study, imo, on dispensationalism at sermonaudio.com, and who I believe to be very wise in discernment and this was his response:
                        Matthew 24:24 speaks of false Christs and false prophets showing great signs and wonders, and it goes on to say; "insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The Jews require a sign (1 Cor. 1:22) so they are going to have a very rough time not falling for the Antichrist's lies and deception. But, will they all make it through without losing their salvation?

                        Matthew 24:45-51 describes two different types of servants. The first mentioned in verses 45-47 describes a faithful servant that helps others, and is rewarded with millennial rule. The other servant loses faith in his lord's return, and turns AGAINST his fellow-servants and joins the enemy! Look what happens to him in verse 51! "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is associated with someone in Hell. (Matthew 13:41-43) But remember, they both STARTED out as servants.

                        Now read down through the entire chapter of Matthew 25. The WHOLE thing is about faithful servants versus unfaithful servants. It ties in perfectly with the command to endure to the end to be saved, in Matthew 24:13!

                        The 10 virgins of Matthew 25:1-13 are NOT Christians. The bride of Christ is called a "chaste VIRGIN" in 2 Corinthians 11:2. Jesus has ONE bride, NOT many! The foolish virgins must buy more oil. Many try to claim that the "oil" is a reference to the Holy Spirit, but this is easily disproved by Acts 8:18-20 where Peter rebukes a man for trying to buy the Holy Ghost!

                        The next parable (verses 14-30) given is of a man who gives talents to his servants. The first two servants do well and are faithful in their good works. The third servant is NOT faithful, and ends up being cast into "outer darkness". (Verse 30) Again, they were ALL servants of the master, but the one fell away.

                        Finally verses 31-46 tells of the judgment of the nations, which will be carried out by Jesus Christ PHYSICALLY here on the earth at the end of the tribulation. Notice the reason Jesus lets the "sheep" into His kingdom in verses 34-40. It is ALL about good works! These people were faithful servants and endured to the end. This is why Jesus grants them access to the millennial kingdom. (Mentioned in Matthew 24:47)

                        Verses 41-46 are pointed at the unfaithful servants. Notice they are judged by their works! If these "goats" were lost simply because they didn't have salvation by "grace through faith", why would the Lord Jesus waste any time on them judging their works?

                        Salvation in the tribulation is by faith AND works.

                        I've really enjoyed this discussion but we may have to just agree to disagree. I would never claim to have it all figured out and I'm always trying to learn. None of us do have everything figured out, but we'll know soon enough. Hopefully very soon.
                        Razberry, who are the elect? Are we (Christians) the elect?

                        Was Judas a Christian? Did he not APPEAR to be a servant?

                        You know that before the antichrist can be revealed there must be a falling away. These are not Christians that are falling away. These are people that have been given the gospel, should accept the truth, but have instead turned to what their ear wants to hear. Our population of Christians in our country has plummeted, and attendance in non-gospel, feel good, "churches" have gone through the roof. Do you know anyone that is true, born again, Bible reading, Christian that would turn away from sound doctrine to false teaching? The answer is NO. This is why Jesus and Paul told us to study and know the word so that we would not be deceived.

                        Those that love Jesus, and his word will read his word, and not be deceived. We know that there will be fake Christians in end days. Jesus said that when he returns people will say Lord Lord, and Jesus will say be gone, I never knew thee.

                        How can they forsake the holy covenant if they were never in agreement with the holy covenant?
                        If they are Jewish that is how.

                        Salvation in the tribulation is by faith AND works.
                        All you have done here is describe James 2:17-18:

                        17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

                        18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
                        Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

                        Anyone who is saved will do good works. In other words, if you aren't saved you wouldn't do good works, you wouldn't have any works to show. Thus, those in the tribulation that aren't doing good works aren't saved. Nothing changed there from now to the tribulation. This doesn't explain that one can lose their salvation.

                        Again, as Daniel states, those that know their God will resist the antichrist.

                        Comment


                        • I just want to add one thing to what Gideon is saying above as well.

                          It also appears in the sheep and goats judgement those who have not taken the mark, survived somehow when He sets up the Millennial Kingdom are sorted and either get to inherit the kingdom promised (see v 34, in particular). Only true believers and the saved nation of Israel will enter. It's in MATTHEW 25:31-46.

                          31. "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
                          32. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
                          33. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
                          34. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
                          35. for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
                          36. I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
                          37. Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
                          38. When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
                          39. Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
                          40. And the King will answer and say to them,
                          'Assuredly, I say to you,
                          inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
                          41. Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
                          42. for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
                          43. I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
                          44. Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
                          45. Then He will answer them, saying,
                          'Assuredly, I say to you,
                          inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
                          46. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

                          The goats are unsaved gentiles left on the earth at the end of the Tribulation. The sheep are saved gentiles at the end of the Tribulation who also have the works of mercy and compassion for others in their time of need to back up their faith. The goats do not actually believe in the Lord as they did not show compassionate or mercy to anyone who had needs that they could help with and only cared for themselves and their own needs and survival during this time. Mercy and compassion are huge characteristics of the Lord Himself--two fruits of the Spirit as well within the Church that a believer will produce as he matures and abides in Him---and will be badly needed during the Tribulation. Can you imagine the suffering, the fear, the overwhelming needs at this time? I am sure these folks will think that survival of the fittest applies here, when it's really laying down our lives for others that the Lord is interested in who truly trusted Him in every way and never loved their life more than Him and understood His example that we are to emulate.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SaintTexas View Post

                            We have been watching the series that has a character called Helen Hannah--I cannot think of what the movie titles are at the moment--and I feel like that is far worse in making light of many things and also doesn't take into account things like:

                            How do they have electricity if they are outlawed without the mark?
                            How does ONE not find them when they log onto the computer?

                            Common sense things. And the world looks just the same in them as well.

                            God's Word is the best place to get our information and to ask questions and get sound answers, but I am not sorry that I read them because of the result in my walk with the Lord, which was to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him as my Savior.
                            That movie was Apocalypse. i just watched it for the first time this week, along with a few others in the genre. What got me was that all the clothing of the Raptured was neatly folded where they were left. I guess it could happen but it was a bit puzzling and distracting.

                            Apocalypse: Caught in the Eye of the Storm
                            (1998) PG
                            Bronson (Richard Nester) and Helen (Leigh Lewis) are journalists reporting on the beginning of a war in the Middle East. But right in front of their eyes, something unexpected happens: Millions of people disappear without a trace. When a new and enigmatic leader appears at the head of the European Union, performing miracles and claiming to be God, the couple find themselves wrapped in a mystery of biblical proportions.
                            Netflix.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by razberry
                              Those who are sealed are the elect, imo. Yes, we Christians are the elect now because we are sealed. There will be no one sealed during the trib except the 144,000.
                              In the Old Testament the Elect referred to the nation of Israel. That is the exact point of the tribulation, The Time of Jacob's Trouble. Christians are grafted into the tree, so now we are also part of the elect, but specifically this is speaking of Israel (Jews+Christians), those that know God.

                              Judas was a disciple of Christ. He served a purpose that Jesus already knew about, which furthered His ultimate reason for coming here, and his betrayal came as no surprise to Jesus. He, Judas, has nothing to do with the parables Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 24 and 25.
                              Judas was chosen as a disciple for a purpose, which he fulfilled. Did he not appear to be a Christian? My point here is that he appeared to be a Christian, and knew the way, yet he chose Satan. Was he not an unfaithful servant of Christ?

                              I agree. IMO, the falling away is speaking of the Laodicean church, which we can see happening now. It simply means, imo, that the people, as a whole, have become totally corrupt and refuse to repent, as in the days of Noah and Lot. People have turned their hearts against what they’ve been taught by their fathers, making them aspostate. It’s kinda the absolute opposite of revival.
                              Exactly. Was the church of Laodicean Christian? This is exactly my point.

                              Again, I agree. But we are not speaking of the Church Age.
                              It doesn't matter; Old Testament, Church Age, Tribulation. Show me exact scripture, which I have asked for, that shows you can lose your salvation once your heart has been circumcised. To teach this is not supported by scripture. If a person does not have faith, they never had faith.

                              Exactly. This chapter is speaking about Jews who are being overrun, specifically the army/soldiers. So, if being Jewish is applied to Daniel 11:30, as only Jews could forsake the covenant, then I assume you’re saying that only Jews will be able to “resist” in verse 32. They are the same people.
                              True, but Christians have been grafted in. Do we not know God? If we are not God's people, then, we are not the elect as you have already stated we are. it can't work both ways...

                              Being Gentile does not mean that you are automatically chosen by Jesus. Jews on the other hand, are God's chosen people. They are supposed to have a covenant with Him, but many choose not to have faith, they break that covenant.

                              Yes. James is speaking about tribulation saints, not the Church. He is speaking to Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel. James 1:1 When does this group show up again? During the tribulation.
                              Huh???? The twelve tribes are spread across the nations during the tribulation??:

                              1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                              To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
                              Greetings.
                              Sorry, I don't think so.

                              Really? I know plenty of unsaved people who do good works. As Christians, of course we’ll do good works because Jesus said, “If you love me, you will obey me.“ All of OUR works are as filthy rags without Christ. The ONLY thing that saves Christians is grace thru faith in Jesus. Different rules for trib saints though. (I don’t refer to them as Christians but rather Trib Saints. We, believers during the church age, are called Christians.)
                              I fail to understand what you are talking about here. How did works of non-believers end up in our discussion...?? I was simply stating that those that have faith in Christ will produce good works because we know his word.

                              I am a dispensational believer. I think those who aren’t cannot possibly rightly divide the word of God and end up making a mess of scripture.
                              So...you are accusing me of dividing the word of God? Really...??

                              I think it was Martin Luther who said he’d like to burn the book of James. (I heard Bryan Denlinger mention this in a teaching.) This is because he, Luther, was not a dispensational believer and he couldn’t make it fit with eternal security.
                              I have just reread through James and cannot find any reference to the tribulation, Time of Jacob's Trouble, antichrist, etc. Please show me the scripture that states this is for tribulation saints, or has to do with the tribulation.


                              The KJV says they are strong and will do exploits. These verses are speaking about soldiers. Soldiers ARE strong and do great deeds, but some will abandon their beliefs and join the AC’s side, imo.
                              You keep on using imo. Your opinion isn't scripture.

                              Comment


                              • Worst Movie on the Rapture?

                                Originally posted by ComeLordJesus View Post
                                That movie was Apocalypse. i just watched it for the first time this week, along with a few others in the genre. What got me was that all the clothing of the Raptured was neatly folded where they were left. I guess it could happen but it was a bit puzzling and distracting.

                                Netflix.com
                                I would vote for "Gone". Saw it last night when we got home from church.....my family was like, "Mom, seriously, this was not a good rapture movie at all!"

                                Umm, sorry I had not seen it before this either. Sooorrry. LOL

                                Comment

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