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  • #76
    I loved the Left Behind series, read them twice. I think as far as Buck and Chloe getting married, they just got saved after the rapture, so this is all new to them, they really had no idea what was coming. So I don't think that is a stretch.

    I am going to go check out The Christ clone trilogy,sounds great!

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    • #77
      [QUOTE=razberry;1947771"Any man" would include tribulation believers as well, imo. It's a new dispensation. It will be a another new dispensation during the millineum. No one will need faith. They'll know that Jesus is alive and well, ruling from Jerusalem.[/QUOTE]

      No one will need faith in the Millenium? Salvation has always been through faith in the Lord. Remember what the purpose of the God's instructions are (The Law, the Prophets, the Psalms) according to Paul in Romans? I am paraphrasing but to come to know sin except through the Law that those who are under it might put their faith in the Lord's promise of a Messiah for them--see the first 8 chapters as Paul puts all groups of people on trial about this very thing. They still had to have faith as practicing the Law was done in faith (well, for the faithful, it was). Did that even make any sense? LOL See Romans! Paul says it well.

      And before the Law was given, Noah believed God, was the only man on earth living rightly before the Lord (that implies faith) when the flood came. Interesting tidbit---one of my kids and I are in this part of Genesis right now and just talked about this this morning. Noah's three sons are mentioned all together---they possibly were triplets and no other sons or children are ever mentioned as coming after the flood either---they had to have been 100. Noah had them when he was 500 years old (Gen 5:32) and when the flood came, Noah was 600 years old, which would make his sons 100 years old (Gen 7:6). Thought that was interesting when we read it today.

      Abraham is the father of faith. He was credited righteousness because he believed God. Same with Isaac and Jacob, Moses.....check out Hebrews 11--it's the faith hall of fame!

      Isaiah 65:20 says speaking of the Millennial Reign of Christ, "“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed.” My understanding of this verse (and I can get further teaching on it if you would like) is that one who does not commit themselves as a faithful believer in the Lord Jesus at that time will be "accursed" and dies as a result. No one at the end of the Millennial Reign, after Jesus is done with Satan completely and these who are unbelievers and rebellious (this shows btw the wickedness that is in our own hearts without Satan doing anything at all to influence us and should lead all those folks to faith in Christ---I did think the Left Behind series did a good job on this part--read Kingdom Come---it's the 16th book--if you want their take on it--they go over this passage and use it in their depiction) will enter into eternity unbelieving. A person cannot enter into the MR or into eternity unbelieving. They can rebel and not believe during the MR.

      That would also mean that when Satan is let loose again at the end of the MR for a time that those who rise up against the Lord would be less than 100 years old.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by razberry
        "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" Revelation 14:9-10

        "Any man" would include tribulation believers as well, imo. It's a new dispensation. It will be a another new dispensation during the millineum. No one will need faith. They'll know that Jesus is alive and well, ruling from Jerusalem.
        That is not scriptural proof of Tribulation Saints losing their salvation. These people are not saved worshiping the beast.... There isn't scripture that states you can lose your salvation. Again, I point to Old Testament Saints whose hearts could not be uncircumcised once their hearts had been circumcised.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by razberry
          "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God...and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" Revelation 14:9-10

          "Any man" would include tribulation believers as well, imo. It's a new dispensation. It will be a another new dispensation during the millineum. No one will need faith. They'll know that Jesus is alive and well, ruling from Jerusalem.
          I believe that the Holy Spirit will be here during the Tribulation but will operate in the same way as He did during the OT, Tribulation Saints will not be sealed but may be guided and "assisted" by the Holy Spirit. If a person takes the mark then they can't be a Tribulation Saint so that doesn't support your claim that Tribualtion Saints (those that accept Christ during the Tribualtion) are not preserved through the Tribualtion. A person will ONLY become a Tribulation Saint by accepting Christ's work on the cross and NOT accepting the MOB, if the person claims to be a believer but takes the MOB then they were never a believer to begin with therefore not a Tribulation Saint.

          When the MOB is presented, it's true purpose will also be presented. When people take the MOB they will know that it's purpose is to show allegiance to the AC, people will not be taking it unknowlingly or without knowing the reason behind taking it so if someone takes it they are not nor have they ever been a Tribulation Saint. I believe that the only thing that will make a person a Tribulation Saint is their "endurance to the end" meaning they either lose their head for not agreeing to worship the beast or God protects and carries them through the Tribulation into the MK.

          Originally posted by SaintTexas View Post
          If what you are saying is that if someone truly believes, they believe (and if they waiver, they will go to the Lord and repent for their waiver as well---like the man who said to the Lord that he believed but asked Him to help his unbelief) and will put their lives on the line for it, lose it if that is what it comes to, they will never recant their salvation, period, willing to suffer for the Lord no matter what comes their way and just absolutely trust that the Word of the Lord is true and never turn from Him, then that is absolutely true.

          They are not sealed by the Holy Spirit though. That is only for the Church. The 144,000 are the only ones said to be sealed in Revelation 7:3. The scriptures never say that any other believer is sealed during the Tribulation, though I know that the Left Behind series depicts that they have a mark on their forehead by the Lord. The two witnesses are said to be given authority (Rev 11:3). With all that fire breathing and turning water into blood and shutting off the rain and striking plagues on the earth, they seem to have their situation under control through these things the Lord has given them quite well! There are quite a few mentions of the patience/perseverance of the Trib saints throughout Revelation.

          Do we agree now?

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Christina View Post
            I believe that the Holy Spirit will be here during the Tribulation but will operate in the same way as He did during the OT, Tribulation Saints will not be sealed but may be guided and "assisted" by the Holy Spirit. If a person takes the mark then they can't be a Tribulation Saint so that doesn't support your claim that Tribualtion Saints (those that accept Christ during the Tribualtion) are not preserved through the Tribualtion. A person will ONLY become a Tribulation Saint by accepting Christ's work on the cross and NOT accepting the MOB, if the person claims to be a believer but takes the MOB then they were never a believer to begin with therefore not a Tribulation Saint.

            When the MOB is presented, it's true purpose will also be presented. When people take the MOB they will know that it's purpose is to show allegiance to the AC, people will not be taking it unknowlingly or without knowing the reason behind taking it so if someone takes it they are not nor have they ever been a Tribulation Saint. I believe that the only thing that will make a person a Tribulation Saint is their "endurance to the end" meaning they either lose their head for not agreeing to worship the beast or God protects and carries them through the Tribulation into the MK.



            I stand clarified and corrected. My apologies.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by SaintTexas View Post
              If what you are saying is that if someone truly believes, they believe (and if they waiver, they will go to the Lord and repent for their waiver as well---like the man who said to the Lord that he believed but asked Him to help his unbelief) and will put their lives on the line for it, lose it if that is what it comes to, they will never recant their salvation, period, willing to suffer for the Lord no matter what comes their way and just absolutely trust that the Word of the Lord is true and never turn from Him, then that is absolutely true.

              They are not sealed by the Holy Spirit though. That is only for the Church. The 144,000 are the only ones said to be sealed in Revelation 7:3. The scriptures never say that any other believer is sealed during the Tribulation, though I know that the Left Behind series depicts that they have a mark on their forehead by the Lord. The two witnesses are said to be given authority (Rev 11:3). With all that fire breathing and turning water into blood and shutting off the rain and striking plagues on the earth, they seem to have their situation under control through these things the Lord has given them quite well! There are quite a few mentions of the patience/perseverance of the Trib saints throughout Revelation.

              Do we agree now?
              I'm not speaking of protection as in a seal. I'm saying that those that accept Christ in the Tribulation will not lose their salvation. To teach otherwise is unBiblical. There is no scripture that supports this thought. Those that accept the mark and worship the beast were never saved to begin with.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Christina View Post
                I believe that the Holy Spirit will be here during the Tribulation but will operate in the same way as He did during the OT, Tribulation Saints will not be sealed but may be guided and "assisted" by the Holy Spirit. If a person takes the mark then they can't be a Tribulation Saint so that doesn't support your claim that Tribualtion Saints (those that accept Christ during the Tribualtion) are not preserved through the Tribualtion. A person will ONLY become a Tribulation Saint by accepting Christ's work on the cross and NOT accepting the MOB, if the person claims to be a believer but takes the MOB then they were never a believer to begin with therefore not a Tribulation Saint.

                When the MOB is presented, it's true purpose will also be presented. When people take the MOB they will know that it's purpose is to show allegiance to the AC, people will not be taking it unknowlingly or without knowing the reason behind taking it so if someone takes it they are not nor have they ever been a Tribulation Saint. I believe that the only thing that will make a person a Tribulation Saint is their "endurance to the end" meaning they either lose their head for not agreeing to worship the beast or God protects and carries them through the Tribulation into the MK.



                Yes, thank you. This has been what I have been trying to say.

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                • #83
                  The LB books were a great read!I didn't find anything that seemed false to me. It's fiction! If there is ANY false teaching there, please let me know.
                  1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)

                  4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Gideon300 View Post
                    I'm not speaking of protection as in a seal. I'm saying that those that accept Christ in the Tribulation will not lose their salvation. To teach otherwise is unBiblical. There is no scripture that supports this thought. Those that accept the mark and worship the beast were never saved to begin with.
                    I understand exactly what you are saying.

                    Thank you. Our exchange actually deepened my understanding of OSAS.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by SaintTexas View Post
                      I understand exactly what you are saying.

                      Thank you. Our exchange actually deepened my understanding of OSAS.
                      You're welcome!

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                      • #86
                        razberry, yes we are sealed but we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and this being during the age of grace. In Footsteps of the Messiah, Fruchtenbaum says the age of grace carries through till the end of the Tribulation, others believe it ends after the Rapture, either way during the Tribulation, the only ones that will be sealed are the 144 thousand but they will be sealed with a mark upon their forehead, it will be visible. In order to be sealed by the Holy Spirit it would mean the Spirit resides within you but that can't happen if the Holy Spirit is removed (or at least the restraining capacity is removed), therefore a Tribulation Saints eternal destination will depend solely upon whether they take the MOB or not, it's all about the MOB. If they don't take the MOB, they won't be allowed to just run and hide and worry about being caught later, if they don't take the MOB they will be beheaded. There will be believers that don't get caught (in other words are protected by God) and make it into the MK, these will be the ones that re-populate in the MK.

                        A person's "salvation" will depend solely on whether they take the MOB or not. What works will there be to do in the Tribulation? Go out a preach the Gospel? From my understanding the only ones that will be protected from death will be the 144 thousand that are sealed upon their forehead (minus the 2 witnesses that die and are raised up again and taken to Heaven by God). So what "works" will there be to do? The final straw will be whether or not a person takes the MOB because the MOB will be explained so when people choose to take it they will in other words be saying yes to worshipping the beast, those who say no thanks to the MOB will be those who are declaring they will not worship the beast but Christ instead.

                        So when Revelation 14:9-10 says "Any man who worships the beast....." it is correct that any man who takes the MOB (in other words worships the beast) they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.....that's exactly it, at that point, regardless of what you called yourself up to that point (Trib. believer or not) it will be the MOB that decides your eternal fate. You can claim to be a Trib. believer before that but nothing is in stone until you either take the MOB or you don't, that is when your fate will be sealed. Endure to the end means you either make it to the MK (with God's help) or you die for your resistance to taking the MOB.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by sbenning5 View Post
                          I happen to really like the Left Behind series and am reading them for the 2nd time (on book 8). They are fiction and I take them as that. Nothing more. If I want to really know how it will be during the Tribulation I read the Bible, not a fiction book.
                          Wow, lol, this is my second time too and I'm on book 7.

                          Like many have said, everyone needs to remember that they are a work of fiction. However, I do believe the framework is biblically sound.

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                          • #88
                            About having children... I'm sure people will, after all children are all taken during the rapture yet when the antichrist marches on jerusalem there will be women with nursing children.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by JFrancisco View Post
                              About having children... I'm sure people will, after all children are all taken during the rapture yet when the antichrist marches on jerusalem there will be women with nursing children.
                              At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they try, but women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.
                              Last edited by OnceWasLost; October 19th, 2010, 08:32 AM.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ag_man View Post
                                At the risk of children getting the mark of the beast, I see two scenarios. 1, By God's hand, humans will no longer reproduce children. I'm sure they will copulate. But women will no longer birth children. Or 2, women birth children, only to have them snatched away by either angels or God's hand to heaven where they will not endure the suffering of the tribulation.
                                Doesn't explain the fact that the faithful remnant will be fleeing Israel and will have infants among them.

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