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  • #16
    Mr Mannn
    Men will be so afraid/yet still unrepentant/ that they will attempt to kill themselves but God will refuse to let them die...
    To me, that is far more frightening.
    Frightening indeed. I've always wondered about the verse that says woe to pregnant woman in those days. Why such a warning?
    Also, the one that specifically says "those who were beheaded".

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    • #17
      Originally posted by carol1948 View Post
      I don't know how scarce the gold of Ophir is, but it seems that scripture tells us that 2/3 of the population of the world or more will be killed during the tribulation. Two-thirds of 6.75 billion leaves 2.25 billion alive, which is more than enough for several very large armies. However, 2.25 billion (if there are that many left) all over the world doesn't seem like a lot to me. Perhaps the inference is more to value of, than quantity of.... Also, I don't know the biblical reference for your statement: "God said...". Will you share it? Thanks.
      yeah but your leaving out the countless saved souls that get raptured, and also the many who die in plane wrecks and car wrecks RIGHT after... id estemate at least 2 - 4 billion because there has been reports of muslims having dreams about God, indicating that there is A LOT MORE saved people than we have thought. i can't point out the link just yet but if i find it than i will.

      so lets say 3 bill are saved, then that would leave 1 bill by the end.


      Whats more frightening than the death toll, happens durring the 2nd half of the trib. Men will be so afraid/yet still unrepentant/ that they will attempt to kill themselves but God will refuse to let them die...
      yeah thats crazy. i've always wondered why, like the motive for why God would not let them die, but it just hit me, that he is protecting the few that WILL get saved ya know. yeah its a small bit but still i believe some will get saved because of that.... i can't elaborate just yet but yeah

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post
        I'll put together something regarding the 200 million demon army soon as I have a little free time. Or maybe somebody will beat me to it. The man-made notion of a 200 million man army from the East is not scriptural. Something to think about in the meantime... for anyone who has some background in logistics... do you think it possible that man or satan could compile a 200 million man army and logistically support that army, on the move?
        Seems only last week or so I listened to Hal Lindsey talking about the rise of China (and these days India too, it seems) and how their female infanticide practices will have them end up with a huge surplus of young men without brides who would be willing recruits for a 200 million man army.

        For what it's worth, I sincerely hope and pray it's an army of demons and not flesh and blood men from China. Men without wives and without hope, looking only to slaughter and be slaughtered in turn.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by rreighe View Post
          Whats more frightening than the death toll, happens durring the 2nd half of the trib. Men will be so afraid/yet still unrepentant/ that they will attempt to kill themselves but God will refuse to let them die...

          yeah thats crazy. i've always wondered why, like the motive for why God would not let them die,
          I always looked it as part of a punishment. This happens during the Great Tribulation in the 2nd half. Its like God won't allow an easy way out. A man can jump off a building, shatter every bone in his body, and still. not. die! That's a horrifying judgment to me.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post
            I'll put together something regarding the 200 million demon army soon as I have a little free time. Or maybe somebody will beat me to it. The man-made notion of a 200 million man army from the East is not scriptural. Something to think about in the meantime... for anyone who has some background in logistics... do you think it possible that man or satan could compile a 200 million man army and logistically support that army, on the move?
            I agree. You're always telling people to read "In the Footsteps of the Messiah," where Fruchtenbaum describes this army being a demonic army. When I read that in the book I was amazed that I had never heard that before, but when you read the description of the horsemen it's obvious John wasn't describing men. Fruchtenbaum also states that "kings of the east" isn't a reference to the far east (e.g., China, India, etc.), but rather it's referring to the eastern ME.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Daniel1210 View Post
              Mr Mannn

              Frightening indeed. I've always wondered about the verse that says woe to pregnant woman in those days. Why such a warning?
              I asked this question once, & this was the answer I got which makes a lot of sense:

              The people being addressed in that verse will literally have to run for their lives.
              It is very difficult for a pregnant woman to run.

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              • #22
                Besides The 1/4 AND THE 1/3=1/2.Then you have all the other judgments and wars. End result if Jesus didn't come back no flesh would be left.
                Last edited by ronbo477; February 28th, 2010, 10:19 PM.

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                • #23
                  Besides the 1/4 AND THE 1/3=1/2. Then you have all the other judgements and wars. End result if Jesus didn't come back no flesh would be left.

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                  • #24
                    prairiedog,
                    Thanks, but maybe there's more to it.

                    Tall Timbers,
                    The population of China is over one billion. I remember reading back in the late 1970s or early 1980s, when the U.S. population was under 300,000,000 that Red China had more soldiers than we had people.
                    At that time, the entire U.S. Army was about 17 2/3 divisions, counting reserves and all. An American army division was 15,000 to 20,000 troops. At the same time, the U.S.S.R had 18 airborne divisions. Not sure how many were in a Soviet division, but they had more airborne divisions than we had army division.
                    The Chinese army has units that presently serve in non-traditional military roles, farming being one of them. If you add in all the reserves, they may have, or could assemble an army of 200,000,000.

                    Scripture tells us it all comes down to the battle of Armageddon. That being the case, once there, that army doesn't have to move.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tall Timbers View Post
                      I'll put together something regarding the 200 million demon army soon as I have a little free time. Or maybe somebody will beat me to it. The man-made notion of a 200 million man army from the East is not scriptural. Something to think about in the meantime... for anyone who has some background in logistics... do you think it possible that man or satan could compile a 200 million man army and logistically support that army, on the move?
                      I have to respectfully disagree. I also believe the 200 million will come from China. I love Fruchtenbaum and "Footsteps of the Messiah" which I'm in the process of reading right now. But I don't always agree with his views. But be that as it may, praise be to the Messiah, we'll be enjoying supper!

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                      • #26
                        200 Million Demon Army from the River Euphrates, Commanded by Four Fallen Angels

                        200 million demon army (6th Trumpet Judgment)

                        Taken from “Footsteps of the Messiah”, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, beginning on page 227

                        Revelations 9:13-21

                        With the sounding of the sixth trumpet, four fallen angles bound at the Euphrates River are released, for they are the leaders of the second demonic invasion (v.13-14). While the dirst demonic invasion was led by one fallen angel, this one is led by four. While the first demonic invasion was able to torment but not to kill, this one is commissioned to kill one-third of the earth’s population (v.15). So the second woe is indeed worse than the first.

                        The number of demons involved in the second invasion is given as two hundred million (v.16). Sensationalism has had a field day with this figure, resulting in some fantastic speculation. In order for this speculation to stand, the two hundred million figure must be pulled out of its context. The speculation all rests on current events. Communist China once declared that they can field an army of two hundred million. Without even so much as questioning the truthfulness of this assertion, many have concluded that the two hundred million must involve a Chinese invasion of the Middle East. The context just will not allow for this. In support of a Chinese invasion, the ones who adhere to this theory say that this invasion is led by te kings of the east and that the east must refer to China. First of all, the kings of the east are found in chapter sixteen and are not connected by the text with the two hundred million of chapter nine. The kings of the east are part of the Bowl Judgments, and the two hundred million belong to the trumpet Judgments. So they are not connected in any way. The events are separated by a period of time. Furthermore, the consistency of usage requires identifying the kings of the east as referring to Mesopotamian kings rather than to China. Who the kinds of the east are will be explained in Chapter 14, The Campaign of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah. For now, it is sufficient to point out that the east in Scripture is always Mesopotamia and never China. This army of two hundred million are demons and not Chinese. The fact that they are led by four fallen angels shows that they are demons rather than humans. Furthermore, the location of the source of this invasion is the Euphrates River, which is not located in China, but in Mesopotamia or ancient Babylonia, a place the Scriptures often connects with demonism.

                        The announcement of the number in this army is followed by a description of what this army looks like (v.17-19). A person would be hard pressed to find just one Chinese person who looks like this, let alone two hundred million of them. The description given of the army clearly rules out their being human and requires that they be demonic. Furthermore, the means by which the destruction of one-third of the world’s population is accomplished (fire, smoke, brimstone), involves the supernatural rather than the natural.

                        To summarize why these two hundred million are demons and not Chinese, four things should be noted: first, they are led by four fallen angels; second, the location of the army is stated to be the Euphrates, where Babylon is located (which in the future will be the headquarters of the counterfeit trinity); third, the description given in the text rules out this army’s being human; and fourth, the kings of the east are not connected with this at all.

                        Another passage describing these two demonic invasions is found in Joel 1:15-2:11.

                        Joel begins to portray this demonic invasion by describing the devastation of the Day of Jehovah, or the Tribulation (1:15-20). After announcing its approach (v.15) he relates the results on the crops (v.15-17): little remains either for the Temple (v.16) or for sustenance (v.17). This is followed by a description of the devastation of the livestock (v.18-20). Joel then proceeds to give an account of the invasion itself (2:1-11). The alarm is sounded (v.l), announcing the approaching army of demons, giving clear evidence that the Day of Jehovah has arrived with a vengeance. He then describes the Day of Jehovah (v.2a) as being composed of darkness, gloominess, clouds and thick darkness. As dawn is sudden and spreads around a mountain, so sudden and widespread is this judgment of the Day of Jehovah. It is then that Joel points to the invading army (v.2b-9). He describes their approach, which shows their uniqueness (v2b) and their devastation (v.3). What is related here is similar to the Revelation passage, which again points to something other than human. The description of the invading army is presented next (v.4-9), giving their appearance (v.4), noise (v.5), terror (v.5-6), speed (v.7), discipline (v.8), and their attack (v.9). The similarity with Revelation is striking and again points to those invaders as being demons. The results (v.10) of this demonic invasion include convulsions of nature and a total blackout, the third one of the end time. The passage concludes with the reason for the invasion (v.11): the judgment of God. The text states that the army is great, for there are two hundred million demons, and it is enough for God to execute His word: the destruction of one-third of humanity. It was pointed out in the introduction that one of the purposes of the Revelation was to giv the chronological sequence to many of the Old Testament prophecies. This is just one example.
                        Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

                        3 trees

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                        • #27
                          With regard to the numbers, I played with this one several years ago by taking the population and decreasing it by some percent (rapture) and then reducing it by the numbers in the bible. Amazing the depopulation the world goes through and I believe the world population by the time of the Second Coming is down to between 1 & 2 billion.

                          Now, the army of 200 mil. I'm taking a college course in Theology and this is where we're at now.

                          Its just as Tall Timbers said.

                          200 Million Demon Army from the River Euphrates, Commanded by Four Fallen Angels

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Daniel1210 View Post
                            The Chinese army has units that presently serve in non-traditional military roles, farming being one of them. If you add in all the reserves, they may have, or could assemble an army of 200,000,000.

                            Scripture tells us it all comes down to the battle of Armageddon. That being the case, once there, that army doesn't have to move.
                            If China could actually arm and then place 200,000,000 front line warriors in one place, all together, I'd be pretty impressed. Lets then see how long they could feed and care for them. Remember these 200,000,000 are all equally equipped for battle. We have to add tens or hundreds of millions of support personnel to the mix... and we'd have to feed and care for them all. China would likely be bankrupt quite quickly. It's really just not possible. I'm not an army logistician. Can someone who knows tell us approximately how many support personnel it might take for each battle equipped soldier? I was Air Force. For every aviator there was a small multitude of support personnel, and we all had to eat, sleep, etc... It's just not possible and neither does it fit Scripture.

                            The army of 200,000,000 is God's judgment of the 6th trumpet. It has no place in the battle of Armageddon. Before Armageddon occurs, the 200,000,000 demons released from the River Euphrates and commanded by 4 fallen angels will have killed 1/3 of the world's human population and mostly likely will have returned from whence they came. They will only be able to do the destruction that God released them for, then they'll be out of the picture.

                            The notion of a 200,000,000 human man army was popular among evangelicals when I was a young man. It can be hard to take something you've been taught by preachers and teachers who are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have and the teachings they've received and come to realize that it just isn't what Scripture actually portrays. As we come closer to the end of days it appears to me that God is raising up more and more eschatologists who are more correctly understanding what Scripture says about the end times.

                            Our search for the Truth here at RR-BB is time well spent. It's good to have our ideas and beliefs about the end times tested and debated. When it comes to folks who have a good grasp of eschatological Scripture, I'm most definitely among the very least, so my personal views should be taken with a grain of salt. I myself lean on the learned ones like Arnold Fruchtenbaum and Dwight Pentecost and many others. Studying their works between devouring the Word of God can shed a lot of light on things, as well as dispel myths that have taken on a life of their own.
                            Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

                            3 trees

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                            • #29
                              200 million demon army

                              Is there a connection between this army and the Pre-Flood activities of Genesis 6...a fulfillment of the scripture warning that the end times will be as "the Days of Noah"?

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                              • #30
                                Tall Timbers

                                If China could actually arm and then place 200,000,000 front line warriors in one place, all together, I'd be pretty impressed. Lets then see how long they could feed and care for them.
                                Oh, let's see. We were in Viet Nam with radar, electronic counter measures, etc..etc... and these scrawny little Asian chaps would carry five rockets for miles and miles down the Ho Chi Minh trail sustaining themselves with a few handfuls of rice.
                                Of course, as soon as they delivered those rockets the recipient would fire them and say, "Go get five more".


                                Talking about sustaining themselves, how about the Japanese who were on islands and hid out in caves up until the 1980s because no one had told them WW II was over.

                                I know 200,000,000 is a huge force, but Scripture says horsemen, not demons, and other places where it means demons it says demons.

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