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  • Originally posted by AmazingLove View Post
    But "who is worthy to open the scroll?" ONLY ONE is worthy:

    Then one of the elders said to me "do not weep! See the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the Throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev. 5:5-6

    WORTHY IS THE LAMB!!!

    I don't want to hijack this thread, but I keep hearing this in my head...WORTHY is the LAMB. Please listen to Chris Tomlin talk about Revelation in the middle of the first video, when he is explaining how he came up with his new song, "I will Rise". The thousands upon thousands of angels are in heaven singing Worthy is the Lamb.

    I've also included the full song below it. Sometimes the Holy Spirit pokes me to share with others. Hope this is ok.




    Comment


    • Originally posted by AmazingLove View Post
      From my understanding, the seven-sealed scroll is the title deed to the earth, given by God to Adam. Adam lost it through sin to Satan. Because of this, Satan is in control of the world from the time of Adam until the Glorious appearing of Christ. John weeps because he knows the scroll represents to the title deed to the earth. But "who is worthy to open the scroll?" ONLY ONE is worthy:

      Then one of the elders said to me "do not weep! See the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the Throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev. 5:5-6

      WORTHY IS THE LAMB!!!

      This all happens at the beginning of the Trib in Revelation, when the seals are opened, therefore, supporting a pre-trib rapture. John observes these events immediately after the Church Age has concluded and just prior to the Trib. The signing of the covenant by the AC starts the trib, and the opening of the seals follows right afterwards.

      Does any of this make sense? Again these are my understanding of scriptures.

      yes, the title deed is the will of God
      Jesus got it back from satan at His crux/rez and only He is worthy to open the scroll (God's will)
      The First seal is the white horse who is released during or right after the rapture, raises the AC, and brings the world's false peace.



      Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
      Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
      Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mollymouse View Post
        We're studying Matthew verse by verse on Sundays. Today we were in Matthew 24. I've always read this as being about us but our Pastor said it was meant for the Jewish nation and those going through the Tribulation.

        I've always thought "Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. " was speaking of the Rapture. He said this is speaking of the Tribulation time and you would want to be the one left.

        He said this whole chapter is not speaking of the church but rather those "left behind" after the Rapture. He said if we try to fit this chapter into our walk it will be confusing.

        Also, he says when they talk about in the days of Noah to remember Enoch Genesis 5:24. He was taken out before the flood and our Pastor says this is a picture of us.

        He believes that we are very close to the Rapture, which we all know don't we

        My head is spinning because 30+ years of Christian walk and thinking I understood the end times prophecy better is shattered.

        Our Pastor is a terrific teacher and I guess I've never had a real teaching on this chapter. Only picked up bits and pieces.

        Just wanted to give everyone food for thought. You guys will probably say , we've known this for years.
        Could they be the believing Jews that are raptured?

        Comment


        • Originally Posted by mollymouse
          We're studying Matthew verse by verse on Sundays. Today we were in Matthew 24. I've always read this as being about us but our Pastor said it was meant for the Jewish nation and those going through the Tribulation.

          I've always thought "Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. " was speaking of the Rapture. He said this is speaking of the Tribulation time and you would want to be the one left.

          He said this whole chapter is not speaking of the church but rather those "left behind" after the Rapture. He said if we try to fit this chapter into our walk it will be confusing.

          Also, he says when they talk about in the days of Noah to remember Enoch Genesis 5:24. He was taken out before the flood and our Pastor says this is a picture of us.

          He believes that we are very close to the Rapture, which we all know don't we

          My head is spinning because 30+ years of Christian walk and thinking I understood the end times prophecy better is shattered.

          Our Pastor is a terrific teacher and I guess I've never had a real teaching on this chapter. Only picked up bits and pieces.

          Just wanted to give everyone food for thought. You guys will probably say , we've known this for years.
          Originally posted by texastig View Post
          Could they be the believing Jews that are raptured?
          I still [after all these posts] disagree that the Matt chapts 24 and 25 are for 'Israel' and not for the church or the rest of the world for that matter.
          I can logically demonstrate using biblical scripture, that the 'one taken and one left' verses especially are not and cannot possibly be anything but the resurrection of the living . This event preceeds the final 7 years before the coming of Jesus with all those multi thousands of saints who were resurrected [earlier].

          I thought I had done this here some time before, but am a poor writer and perhaps it wasn't clear.
          I feel compelled to try again and emphasize those points that even the pastor may have overlooked.
          A most wonderful fact of bible study is that you can start a study anywhere in the texts and return to square one just as easily...
          Revelation 11:5-7

          5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

          6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


          7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

          In what particular span during the tribulation years that this takes place and which particular locations are affected by these maladies, I am not clear.
          If the entire planet is smitten with plagues, then it might be on the side of warning that not a drop of water will fall from the sky anywhere for 1260 days Rev 11; 3.
          There are those who are predisposed to believe that the church will not have been taken from the earth during these days..I am not one of them.

          In Matt 24 the warning [because that is what it is] concerns those engaged in occupation or employment ..hired or self..doesn't matter...in fields ..in the mills but they are processing grain of some sort. this cannot be after the prophecies of the witnesses.
          How could it be, when not a drop of water has dropped on that or any ground and all the rivers are ruined? For 42 months!!!!
          Furthermore, even if the engagement of employment, is possibly in effect at the end of the tribulation...which one was taken and which was left?
          Those with the MARK? Or those who refused the mark?
          Doesn't matter because those who will refuse the mark will NOT be granted employment, they will be shuned by the anti-christ followers..hunted..killed..beheaded..until none is left.
          Like Nazi Europe only 10000 times worse.

          When the Lord returns, there will be employment all right...the employment of war.
          Ever read this?
          Zechariah 8:9-11
          9Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the LORD of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

          10For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.
          11But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts..


          No hire..none at all..for man nor beast
          The 'temple that might be built' is the temple that is Jesus [not Herod's temple]
          I've seen these guys on the boards before. Without any supporting scripture at all they write about the tribulation [those who think that way] as though it was like a 5 year old kid lost at the shopping mall.
          Know what I mean?
          See?......... Mollymouse was right after all.
          The pastor was right when he told her "You wouldn't want to be left
          .................................................. .............................

          Comment


          • Consider this, though.

            Matthew 25:31-46 is referring to the period of time AFTER the tribulation, for it says in verse 31-32, "When the Son of Man shall come in His glory... then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats"

            ... yet it goes on to describe exactly what they will be judged on... how the nations either helped or didn't help "His brethren" (the Jews) during the tribulation period (as demonstration of their faith in Him)... things like feeding the hungry and giving drink... visiting the sick and imprisoned, etc... This will be the judgment of that particular time period (the sheep and goat judgment of the nations, after the trib)... but it appears (according to this passage) that they will have the ability to do these types of things.

            Matthew 25:31-46

            31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

            32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

            33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

            34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

            35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

            36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

            37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

            38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

            39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

            40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

            41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

            42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

            43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

            44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

            45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

            46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

            Comment


            • When the living christians are taken from the earth, this leaves two future groups of people..those who will accept the mark and those who will not.

              When Jesus returns with HIS saints, these will ALL be gathered at the same time. This is the sheep and goat judgment.
              At this judgment no one is will be left...Everyone is there. ALL will be present.

              Matthew 25:32
              And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tfcrew View Post
                When the living christians are taken from the earth, this leaves two future groups of people..those who will accept the mark and those who will not.

                When Jesus returns with HIS saints, these will ALL be gathered at the same time. This is the sheep and goat judgment.
                At this judgment no one is will be left...Everyone is there. ALL will be present.

                Matthew 25:32
                And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                yes, the sheep are the trib saints, the goats are those who take the mark



                Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
                Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
                Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tfcrew View Post
                  When the living christians are taken from the earth, this leaves two future groups of people..those who will accept the mark and those who will not.

                  When Jesus returns with HIS saints, these will ALL be gathered at the same time. This is the sheep and goat judgment.
                  At this judgment no one is will be left...Everyone is there. ALL will be present.

                  Matthew 25:32
                  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
                  Here's a pretty good chart depicting this future judgment (from Clarence Larkin) :

                  http://www.larkinestate.com/Charts/lark-110.htm

                  Notice that the Church will have already experienced the Judgment Seat of Christ (for reward, at the Bema Seat, after the rapture, in our glorified bodies), but we (the Church) are not the "subjects" of the sheep and goat judgment... it is "the nations" (Gentiles) that will be judged at that point (on the earth, after His Second Coming).



                  Another reason I believe this is referring to "the nations" (besides the fact that the text expressly says so; again, see Matthew 25:32), but not "the Church", is the small phrase (in Matthew 25:34) that I am highlighting here, which says, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"

                  ... but as for the Church, Ephesians 1:4 says of it, "chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world" (see context, Ephesians 1:1-14)... a difference which I believe should be distinguished.

                  Comment


                  • I have to chime in here.

                    Resurrection Torchlight's post is confusing the way he worded it. That is because, as per this forum's rules, he cannot post how he interprets Revelation and the timing of the Rapture. I respectfully disagree with his assertions after reading what he believes in another forum. He believes in a Pre-Trib rapture.....according to where he places the beginning of the Trib. But not the way we believe it. One problem, without divulging things that go against the forum's rules, is that it mixes up the Olivet discourse to partially apply to the Church....and as I've stated on many an occasion, this always ends with disasterous results. The Olivet Discourse was only intended for Israel alone. The Church had not been born at the time of Jesus saying this: Why would Jesus talk about things to a people in which they would not apply? But the crux of his interpretation hinges on the assertion that when Jesus ascended to heaven in Revelation 5:1-5, John was viewing the transition from Old Testament to New Testament. This has many implications, many of which cannot be stated as per forum rules, but I will talk about one: The 24 Elders. Since the 24 Elders were in heaven prior to Jesus entering the heavenly scene to take the scroll, it is automatically implied that the 24 Elders cannot represent the raptured Church, but rather heavenly beings. This is one of the main problems I have, not to mention their song and the implications of that song when properly translated....they can be no one else but the redeemed Church.

                    I mean this not to cast RT in a negative manner.....I sincerely believe he is a fellow brother with good intentions, and he is also very humble. But my zeal to protect the Word of God overrides any desire to avoid confrontation. RT, I love you with a brotherly love, but we definitely sit on opposite sides of the fence on this one

                    Comment


                    • Lil Sue

                      Brand spanky new to the board, so if I am a bit behind, please forgive me.
                      I have read this thread with great interest and getting an education. I would like to ask a question. What is the Olivet Discourse please?

                      Comment


                      • The Olivet discourse refers to Jesus's famous "Sermon on the Mount" (the Mount of Olives). Cheers. Mishk.

                        Comment


                        • Ah, thank you. I knew I was missing something. I just had never heard that term before. Now this thread makes much more sense. Thank you again.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mishkins View Post
                            The Olivet discourse refers to Jesus's famous "Sermon on the Mount" (the Mount of Olives). Cheers. Mishk.
                            The Olivet Discourse is different than the Sermon on the Mount. The SotM was given in Matthew 5-7, whereas the Olivet Discourse was given in Matthew 24-25. True, both were given on the Mount of Olives, but they were separate sermons. The SotM was given to a large crowd, the OD was given just to the disciples.

                            Just wanted to clear that up

                            Comment


                            • I had intended to post a portion of Clarence Larkin's chapter on "The Judgments" (chapter 17 of his book "Dispensational Truth") regarding the difference between the sheep and goat judgment of the nations in Matthew 25:31-46 and the judgment described in Revelation 20:11-13 :

                              Judgment No. 4.

                              1. Subjects-The Nations (Gentiles).
                              2. Time-The "Revelation of Christ."
                              3. Place-The "Throne of His Glory." On the Earth-"Valley of Jehoshaphat."
                              4. Basis of judgment-Their Treatment of Christ's Brethren-The Jews.
                              5. Result-Some Nations "SAVED, " Others "DESTROYED."

                              This judgment is FUTURE.

                              The account of this judgment is given in Matthew 25:31-33. The description of this judgment, and of the one given in Rev. 20:11-13 are combined by many, and taken to teach the doctrine of a general judgment. But when we compare them, they differ so widely, that it is evident that they do not describe the same event. What God has put asunder let no man join together. The following comparison will show the difference in the two accounts:

                              Matthew 25:31-33. Rev. 20:11-13.
                              1. No Resurrection. 1. A Resurrection.
                              2. Living Nations judged. 2. Dead judged.
                              3. On the Earth. Joel 3:2. 3. Heaven and Earth Gone.
                              4. No Books Mentioned. 4. Books Opened.
                              5. Three Classes Named. "Sheep, ""Goats, " "Brethren." 5. One Class Named. "The Dead."
                              6. Time-Before the Millennium 6. Time-After the Millennium.

                              This comparison reveals the fact that one of these judgments is "on the earth, " the other in the "heavens, " and that they are separated by 1000 years.

                              The Greek word "ethnos" here translated "Nations, " occurs 158 times in the New Testament. It is translated "Gentiles" 92 times, "Nation" or "Nations" 61 times, and "The Heathen" 5 times, but it is never in any instance (unless it be this) applied either to the "dead" or the "resurrected."

                              As this is a judgment of nations only, the Jews cannot be in it, for they are not reckoned among the nations. Num. 23:9. And as the Church will be associated with Christ in this judgment, for the "Saints" (the Church) shall judge the "World" (the Nations), (1 Cor. 6:2), the Church cannot be in this judgment either. As we have seen the Church and the Jews have been already judged, so the "Judgment of the Nations" cannot be a general judgment. Who then, is asked, are meant by the Sheep? Do they not represent the Righteous, and all the Righteous from the beginning of the world to the end of Time? And do not the Goats in like manner represent all the Wicked?

                              If the Sheep are the Righteous, and the Goats the Wicked, then who are the Brethren? If they are the "followers of Christ, " as some claim, they should be classed with the Sheep. The Scriptures teach that the Righteous are saved by "faith, " and the Wicked are lost because they "reject Christ, " but in this judgment scene the Sheep inherit a "Kingdom" and the Goats are commanded to "depart, " because of their treatment of the Brethren.

                              All the contusion is caused by trying to make a judgment of "nations" mean a judgment of "individuals." The Sheep represent one class of Nations, and the Goats another class, while the Brethren represent the Jews (Christ's brethren).

                              We must bear in mind the time and place of this judgment. The time is at the "Revelation of Christ, " when He comes to set up His "Millennial Kingdom" on the earth. The place is the "Valley of Jehoshaphat" in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

                              "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the 'Valley of Jehoshaphat, ' and will plead with them there for MY PEOPLE and for my heritage ISRAEL, whom they have scattered among the Nations, and parted my land." Joel 3:1, Joel 3:2.

                              This prophecy clearly states that there is to be a "Judgment of Nations" on the earth in the "Valley of ehoshaphat" at the time of the restoration of the Jews to their own' land, and that the basis of judgment is the treatment by the nations of Christ's brethren-The Jews.

                              During the "Tribulation Period" the Nations that treat the Jewish People kindly, feeding and clothing them, and visiting them in prison, will be the "Sheep Nations, " while those who neglect to do so will be the "Goat Nations."

                              At the "Judgment of Nations" the King (Christ) will say to the "Sheep Nations, " inasmuch as ye have been kind to My brethren (the Jews), "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." This Kingdom is the "Millennial Kingdom" that the "Sheep Nations" as Nations will "inherit" and possess during the Millennium. And as they are to be among the "saved nations" of the New Earth (Rev. 21:24) it can be said of them that they, or at least the righteous individuals of them, shall enter into life eternal. Matthew 25:46.

                              Christ's sentence upon the "Goat Nations" will be-"Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire ' prepared for the Devil and his angels, " and "these shall go away into everlasting punishment." The "Goat Nations" will at once be destroyed as Nations, not one of them shall get into the Millennium, and the wicked individuals that compose them will perish and be eternally lost.
                              http://www.raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/chap17.cfm

                              Hope I posted that right, this time...

                              Also, I wanted to add the thought that, at Armageddon (at the end of the tribulation period), there will apparently be plenty of people who will have the wherewithal to fight. (But maybe I've mentioned that before... )

                              Comment

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