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  • Originally posted by Silver View Post
    I know you stated that you didn't read the whole thread which only makes the same point I made in the post above yours even more solid.
    Thanks Silver and I apologize for being repetitious but it seems to me that anyone who believes Jesus would beat us has some odd ideas about His saving grace. I'm being repetitious again. Flame me if need be, but Jesus saves, he doesn't beat up His own.

    Comment


    • I believe the Bible does support a pre-trib rapture- however I do not agree with the reasons that have been traditionally taught by pre -tribulationalists. I think that the reasoning behind the current dispensational view is flawed, and that these flaws are precisely what has lead to a rise in other rapture views. This board does not provide an avenue for me to explain in depth and I would need to post very lengthy study to show it all. But I encourage you to stop reading what others say, and go to the word of God, study it -don't just read it. The book of revelation is the roadmap to understanding all of scripture. Everything in scripture both old and new testaments point to the day of the Lord as the defining moment to all who believe. The major events are Chronological- seals followed by trumpets followed by bowls.

      When you study ask yourself these questions

      What is it that John is witness to when he sees the Lamb appear before the throne?
      (*hint-see the book of Hebrews)

      What is the scroll?
      (*hint see Zechariah 5)

      What are the seals?
      (*hint see Zechariah 1 and Zechariah 6, Leviticus 26:14-46, Jeremiah 15)

      Look to the word to interpret itself- it does a much better job than any man can do. The seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened, and until you understand what the scroll is you cannot understand the seals. It is all very logical once you set aside the preconceived ideas that have been handed down to you. That is not to say that you throw it all out the window- because there is much to be learned by those who have spent their lives studying.

      And until you understand exactly what it is John is witness to when he is brought into the heavenly realm, you cannot possibly understand who the 24 elders are or what they symbolize. you cannot understand where the rapture takes place. However once you see it you will wonder how you ever missed something so obvious.


      I think the problem with interpreting prophecy is that most scholars don't really study it themselves, they just go to what others have said about it and attach their own ideas to theirs. What you end up with is a soup of confusion. The whole of scripture needs to be considered, not just bits and pieces. I also think there is way too much focus on meanings of singular words, though the intent of the author is very important and it is a very good idea to look into the original languages and what words mean. I think that all too often scholars will get hung up on a word to the point that they lose sight of the bigger picture going on around the word.

      Scripture provides the best authority as to the meaning behind prophecy. Where we don't see clearly we must admit it, we may make assumptions, but we must base them on scriptural principles, and admit that they are only a best guess based on scripture. There are some things that will become more clear as the day approaches, some things will be more clear for those who endure the 70th week. And some things we just will not ever understand until hindsight provides a clear view.

      Here we see through a glass- dimly, but one day we will fully know as we are fully known.

      If you are confused, trust in God, go to His word, if you are still confused then stop trying to figure it out for now and instead work on being ready and doing His work until He comes. You may need time to grow in understanding before you can tackle interpretation of prophecy. I would also encourage you to examine your walk with the Lord- are you truly living for Him? Is there sin in your life that you need to repent of. Unrepentant sin can cloud our understanding of scripture.

      Don't beat yourself up if you are having a hard time, just be patient, study other portions of scripture, often it will open up your understanding of that thing you couldn't figure out before. I agree with others- just keep your eyes on Jesus- that is the important thing- you may never feel like you understand prophecy- it's okay- you are not alone- none of us fully do, and no one ever fully has, it is by its very nature only to be completely revealed when it is fulfilled.

      I have spent many hours debating on another forum with non-pre-tribbers about the rapture, they just are not convinced, not even when you point out the flaws in their reasoning with scripture. I suppose they would say the same about me. In the end what is important is following Christ- pursuing the goal- eternal life in Him. We will all one day find out who was right when the prophecies are fulfilled, I am hoping that happens sooner rather than later.

      But in the meantime live as if you knew He was coming tomorrow to say "come up here".

      RT

      Comment


      • Originally posted by cocopea9052 View Post
        I don't really get these type of debates. It can't be proven until it happens. It's as if the details would really matter and in this case I don't see how they would. I mean regardless-- is not the bottom line that non-believers will not be Raptured? I don't understand the basis for the argument? If they think Christians are going to go through the trib and not be Raptured prior, well they are still Christians. I mean do they think it will buy non-believers more time?

        Well anyway, it took me a long time to understand the correct teachings of the Rapture and I am not confused. And even if all pre-tribs changed their minds and converted to post-tribs, I would still put all my faith in the Lord and that he is in no way going to have his children suffer through the trib. So they can think there is no pre-trib Rapture, but I would tell them, think what you want, God will have us somewhere....they want to mess with doctrine, then God can have us on the moon or on a star...but we won't be here.
        I agree totally, I believe 100% in pre-trib, people will believe whatever they want, doesn't make what they believe as accurate or true. The Lord is faithful and true and his word is always faithful. I think people need to be careful and believe what the bible states and not what some mere men think. I don't even look at those other sites and ideas, I know their there, and I know they exsist, but the truth is all I need.

        Comment


        • Pre tribbers have a heads up on the rapture

          Pre tribbers are those of us who expect the rapture to occur prior to the tribulation. We will be the first to know if we were right or wrong. If we are right, we will be gone before a "covenant with many" is signed for seven years. If we see this covenant signing, then we will know we were wrong. Mid tribbers will know if we are right when we and they are caught up prior to the tribulation, as well as post tribbers. I do not think they will be disappointed if they are wrong, but us pre tribbers would be.

          I honestly believe that we will soon know who was right and who was wrong regarding the time of the rapture, and I believe we will be the ones who were right. But if we are here much longer, we are going to start seeing tribulation events, because the stirrings of those events are before us every day, and the world is clamoring to get on with it and get everything under one head.

          Its rapture soon or tribulation soon. The time of knowing who was right about the timing of the rapture is upon us.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gideon300 View Post
            Brinkley is correct! If I may add to his assessment, not only are we put on a white horse, the Bible is clear that we are going to receive a white robe in heaven too. The Bible does not say that we meet Jesus in the clouds, go back to heaven very quickly and get a white robe, and then come back to earth all at once. Christ said that he was going to prepare a place for us in his Father's house so that when he comes for us we can be with him there in heaven. It does not make sense that we meet him in the clouds and immediately come back to earth. What was the point in him preparing a place in heaven for us to be with him in heaven?
            and the Bema seat judgment has to take place sometime, more than likely during the 7 year tribulation, perhaps it takes 7 years to evaluate and reward the church



            Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
            Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
            Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Silver View Post
              Q: Does a groom beat his cherished bride before the wedding?
              A: NO
              I love that! That is such a good way to put it. I would really love to see a post-tribber try and answer it differently.....
              Last edited by Buzzardhut; September 15th, 2009, 08:25 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by just-a-servant
                Hmm, I wonder how many have been martyred since Pentecost, how many have been beaten up, how many have been persecuted since then? Has Jesus let them get beat up too? As I recall, eleven out of twelve disciples were martyred. It doesn't seem too far fetched to believe that we too may face such tribulations.
                JustaServant,

                Yes, this is true and I see your point. But facing tribulations and being here for what the bible describes as the Tribulation, I thought were too different things?

                If it is not, then I suppose one could conclude that we have been living during the trib since then-- just minus the precise events described in the bible..

                And if the analogy is that the Bridegroom is coming for his Bride based on customs, I still don't see where the Bridegroom would beat her to death before they are married? . Just like with the Birth pangs analogy. Do we compare in the manner of what we know now, what it meant then--or is an analogy open to alternate meanings?...

                I really don't know. I mean if God wants us here during the Trib (as events happen according to the bible), then he will have us here. But as I've said, I just don't see it. Not meaning to or will debate it..sorry. But, I just don't see it.

                Comment



                • [15] No promotion of Mid, Post Tribulation, Prewrath, Preterism, or Replacement theology. This board is traditional Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Pre 6 Seals, Pre 70th week, and Pre-Millennial Dispensational of End Times Prophecy. No posting alternative theories from other websites. We believe in a literal 7 year Tribulation period, after the instantaneous Rapture of all regenerated believers in unison, during which God finishes His discipline of Israel, protects Israel, and finalizes His judgments on the unbelieving world. Salvation will remain open to people trusting in Jesus for salvation up to the Second Coming.
                  No suggestions of living righteously enough for the rapture, or salvation unattainable after the Rapture is allowed.
                  All discussions on these topics must follow suit. Jesus said we won't know the day nor hour of His return and always be ready keeping watch.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by resurrection torchlight View Post
                    I believe the Bible does support a pre-trib rapture- however I do not agree with the reasons that have been traditionally taught by pre -tribulationalists. I think that the reasoning behind the current dispensational view is flawed, and that these flaws are precisely what has lead to a rise in other rapture views. This board does not provide an avenue for me to explain in depth and I would need to post very lengthy study to show it all. But I encourage you to stop reading what others say, and go to the word of God, study it -don't just read it. The book of revelation is the roadmap to understanding all of scripture. Everything in scripture both old and new testaments point to the day of the Lord as the defining moment to all who believe. The major events are Chronological- seals followed by trumpets followed by bowls.

                    When you study ask yourself these questions

                    What is it that John is witness to when he sees the Lamb appear before the throne?
                    (*hint-see the book of Hebrews)

                    What is the scroll?
                    (*hint see Zechariah 5)

                    What are the seals?
                    (*hint see Zechariah 1 and Zechariah 6, Leviticus 26:14-46, Jeremiah 15)

                    Look to the word to interpret itself- it does a much better job than any man can do. The seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened, and until you understand what the scroll is you cannot understand the seals. It is all very logical once you set aside the preconceived ideas that have been handed down to you. That is not to say that you throw it all out the window- because there is much to be learned by those who have spent their lives studying.

                    And until you understand exactly what it is John is witness to when he is brought into the heavenly realm, you cannot possibly understand who the 24 elders are or what they symbolize. you cannot understand where the rapture takes place. However once you see it you will wonder how you ever missed something so obvious.


                    I think the problem with interpreting prophecy is that most scholars don't really study it themselves, they just go to what others have said about it and attach their own ideas to theirs. What you end up with is a soup of confusion. The whole of scripture needs to be considered, not just bits and pieces. I also think there is way too much focus on meanings of singular words, though the intent of the author is very important and it is a very good idea to look into the original languages and what words mean. I think that all too often scholars will get hung up on a word to the point that they lose sight of the bigger picture going on around the word.

                    Scripture provides the best authority as to the meaning behind prophecy. Where we don't see clearly we must admit it, we may make assumptions, but we must base them on scriptural principles, and admit that they are only a best guess based on scripture. There are some things that will become more clear as the day approaches, some things will be more clear for those who endure the 70th week. And some things we just will not ever understand until hindsight provides a clear view.

                    Here we see through a glass- dimly, but one day we will fully know as we are fully known.

                    If you are confused, trust in God, go to His word, if you are still confused then stop trying to figure it out for now and instead work on being ready and doing His work until He comes. You may need time to grow in understanding before you can tackle interpretation of prophecy. I would also encourage you to examine your walk with the Lord- are you truly living for Him? Is there sin in your life that you need to repent of. Unrepentant sin can cloud our understanding of scripture.

                    Don't beat yourself up if you are having a hard time, just be patient, study other portions of scripture, often it will open up your understanding of that thing you couldn't figure out before. I agree with others- just keep your eyes on Jesus- that is the important thing- you may never feel like you understand prophecy- it's okay- you are not alone- none of us fully do, and no one ever fully has, it is by its very nature only to be completely revealed when it is fulfilled.

                    I have spent many hours debating on another forum with non-pre-tribbers about the rapture, they just are not convinced, not even when you point out the flaws in their reasoning with scripture. I suppose they would say the same about me. In the end what is important is following Christ- pursuing the goal- eternal life in Him. We will all one day find out who was right when the prophecies are fulfilled, I am hoping that happens sooner rather than later.

                    But in the meantime live as if you knew He was coming tomorrow to say "come up here".

                    RT
                    Thank you for such a great post. I agree wholeheartedly. I have a question for you - why do you think the scroll was sweet in John's mouth but made his stomach "bitter" - I've never been able to quite fathom that - I have my ideas but would like somebody elses thoughts on this. Thanks. Mishk.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mishkins View Post
                      Thank you for such a great post. I agree wholeheartedly. I have a question for you - why do you think the scroll was sweet in John's mouth but made his stomach "bitter" - I've never been able to quite fathom that - I have my ideas but would like somebody elses thoughts on this. Thanks. Mishk.
                      God's word is always sweet but God's vengeance and judgment is quite bitter, especially for those on the receiving end.



                      Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
                      Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
                      Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Buzzardhut View Post
                        God's word is always sweet but God's vengeance and judgment is quite bitter, especially for those on the receiving end.
                        Yes - those have been my thoughts - but doesn't the scroll have the names of the Saints on it - those who have been counted worthy? Or do you think it's "the full list"!! Thanks much.

                        Comment


                        • http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=70...hlight=rapture

                          Originally posted by Mishkins View Post
                          Yes - those have been my thoughts - but doesn't the scroll have the names of the Saints on it - those who have been counted worthy? Or do you think it's "the full list"!! Thanks much.
                          which saints? pretrib saints? tribulation saints?



                          Revelation 22:17a The Spirit and Bride are now saying, "Come!" The ones who hear are now saying, "Come!" The ones who thirst are now saying, "Come!" so come LORD Jesus !
                          Buzzardhut.net |The Watch Parables | The Rapture | Romans | The Virgin Mary | Roman Catholicism
                          Never Heard of Jesus? | The Evidence Bible | Tent Meeting | The Beast/666 | The Kingdom of Darkness | The Nephilim

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by resurrection torchlight View Post
                            I believe the Bible does support a pre-trib rapture- however I do not agree with the reasons that have been traditionally taught by pre -tribulationalists. I think that the reasoning behind the current dispensational view is flawed, and that these flaws are precisely what has lead to a rise in other rapture views. This board does not provide an avenue for me to explain in depth and I would need to post very lengthy study to show it all. But I encourage you to stop reading what others say, and go to the word of God, study it -don't just read it. The book of revelation is the roadmap to understanding all of scripture. Everything in scripture both old and new testaments point to the day of the Lord as the defining moment to all who believe. The major events are Chronological- seals followed by trumpets followed by bowls.

                            When you study ask yourself these questions

                            What is it that John is witness to when he sees the Lamb appear before the throne?
                            (*hint-see the book of Hebrews)

                            What is the scroll?
                            (*hint see Zechariah 5)

                            What are the seals?
                            (*hint see Zechariah 1 and Zechariah 6, Leviticus 26:14-46, Jeremiah 15)

                            Look to the word to interpret itself- it does a much better job than any man can do. The seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened, and until you understand what the scroll is you cannot understand the seals. It is all very logical once you set aside the preconceived ideas that have been handed down to you. That is not to say that you throw it all out the window- because there is much to be learned by those who have spent their lives studying.

                            And until you understand exactly what it is John is witness to when he is brought into the heavenly realm, you cannot possibly understand who the 24 elders are or what they symbolize. you cannot understand where the rapture takes place. However once you see it you will wonder how you ever missed something so obvious.


                            I think the problem with interpreting prophecy is that most scholars don't really study it themselves, they just go to what others have said about it and attach their own ideas to theirs. What you end up with is a soup of confusion. The whole of scripture needs to be considered, not just bits and pieces. I also think there is way too much focus on meanings of singular words, though the intent of the author is very important and it is a very good idea to look into the original languages and what words mean. I think that all too often scholars will get hung up on a word to the point that they lose sight of the bigger picture going on around the word.

                            Scripture provides the best authority as to the meaning behind prophecy. Where we don't see clearly we must admit it, we may make assumptions, but we must base them on scriptural principles, and admit that they are only a best guess based on scripture. There are some things that will become more clear as the day approaches, some things will be more clear for those who endure the 70th week. And some things we just will not ever understand until hindsight provides a clear view.

                            Here we see through a glass- dimly, but one day we will fully know as we are fully known.

                            If you are confused, trust in God, go to His word, if you are still confused then stop trying to figure it out for now and instead work on being ready and doing His work until He comes. You may need time to grow in understanding before you can tackle interpretation of prophecy. I would also encourage you to examine your walk with the Lord- are you truly living for Him? Is there sin in your life that you need to repent of. Unrepentant sin can cloud our understanding of scripture.

                            Don't beat yourself up if you are having a hard time, just be patient, study other portions of scripture, often it will open up your understanding of that thing you couldn't figure out before. I agree with others- just keep your eyes on Jesus- that is the important thing- you may never feel like you understand prophecy- it's okay- you are not alone- none of us fully do, and no one ever fully has, it is by its very nature only to be completely revealed when it is fulfilled.

                            I have spent many hours debating on another forum with non-pre-tribbers about the rapture, they just are not convinced, not even when you point out the flaws in their reasoning with scripture. I suppose they would say the same about me. In the end what is important is following Christ- pursuing the goal- eternal life in Him. We will all one day find out who was right when the prophecies are fulfilled, I am hoping that happens sooner rather than later.

                            But in the meantime live as if you knew He was coming tomorrow to say "come up here".

                            RT
                            Okay so i sat and read these last night...i seriously dont have a clue as to what they mean...can someone help me understand please? thanks!
                            Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life~Proverbs 4:23

                            Comment


                            • From my understanding, the seven-sealed scroll is the title deed to the earth, given by God to Adam. Adam lost it through sin to Satan. Because of this, Satan is in control of the world from the time of Adam until the Glorious appearing of Christ. John weeps because he knows the scroll represents to the title deed to the earth. But "who is worthy to open the scroll?" ONLY ONE is worthy:

                              Then one of the elders said to me "do not weep! See the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the Throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev. 5:5-6

                              WORTHY IS THE LAMB!!!

                              This all happens at the beginning of the Trib in Revelation, when the seals are opened, therefore, supporting a pre-trib rapture. John observes these events immediately after the Church Age has concluded and just prior to the Trib. The signing of the covenant by the AC starts the trib, and the opening of the seals follows right afterwards.

                              Does any of this make sense? Again these are my understanding of scriptures.
                              Last edited by AmazingLove; September 15th, 2009, 10:56 AM. Reason: correction

                              Comment


                              • 2 Thes 2 (Contemporary English Version)

                                When our Lord Jesus returns, we will be gathered up to meet him. So I ask you, my friends,
                                2Th 2:2 not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim that the Lord has already come. They may say that they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters.
                                2Th 2:3 But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.
                                2Th 2:4 He will brag and oppose everything that is holy or sacred. He will even sit in God's temple and claim to be God.
                                2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that I told you this while I was still with you?
                                2Th 2:6 You already know what is holding this wicked one back until it is time for him to come.
                                2Th 2:7 His mysterious power is already at work, but someone is holding him back. And the wicked one won't appear until that someone is out of the way.
                                2Th 2:8 Then he will appear, but the Lord Jesus will kill him simply by breathing on him. He will be completely destroyed by the Lord's glorious return.
                                2Th 2:9 When the wicked one appears, Satan will pretend to work all kinds of miracles, wonders, and signs.
                                2Th 2:10 Lost people will be fooled by his evil deeds. They could be saved, but they will refuse to love the truth and accept it.
                                2Th 2:11 So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
                                2Th 2:12 All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.
                                2Th 2:13 My friends, the Lord loves you, and it is only natural for us to thank God for you. God chose you to be the first ones to be saved. His Spirit made you holy, and you put your faith in the truth.
                                2Th 2:14 God used our preaching as his way of inviting you to share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                                2Th 2:15 My friends, that's why you must remain faithful and follow closely what we taught you in person and by our letters.
                                2Th 2:16 God our Father loves us. He is kind and has given us eternal comfort and a wonderful hope. We pray that our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father
                                2Th 2:17 will encourage you and help you always to do and say the right thing.

                                Looking at this whole Chapter I believe this is proof that the rapture will take place BEFORE the Trib. Verse 3 could mean 2 things:

                                1. That we (Christians) may suspect who the wicked one is and then "poof"
                                2: That we (Christians) WONT know who the wicked one is BUT he will already be in some gov. position, and just before he rises to full power then
                                "poof"
                                IMHO I believe in the 2nd one.

                                Now looking at verses 6&7

                                2Th 2:6 You already know what is holding this wicked one back until it is time for him to come.
                                2Th 2:7 His mysterious power is already at work, but someone is holding him back. And the wicked one won't appear until that someone is out of the way.

                                I believe that "someone" is us (the Church and the Lord that is in us)

                                Verse 8

                                2Th 2:8 Then he will appear, but the Lord Jesus will kill him simply by breathing on him. He will be completely destroyed by the Lord's glorious return.

                                I believe this is when Christ comes back (and us with him) in the Glorious Appearing.

                                So what about Verses 4 & 9-11?
                                4 He will brag and oppose everything that is holy or sacred. He will even sit in God's temple and claim to be God.
                                9 When the wicked one appears, Satan will pretend to work all kinds of miracles, wonders, and signs.
                                10 Lost people will be fooled by his evil deeds. They could be saved, but they will refuse to love the truth and accept it.
                                11 So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.

                                I believe this is what takes place AFTER verse 7 but BEFORE verse 8

                                Verse 12
                                All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.

                                I believe this is what happens WITH verse 8.

                                Verses 13-17
                                2Th 2:13 My friends, the Lord loves you, and it is only natural for us to thank God for you. God chose you to be the first ones to be saved. His Spirit made you holy, and you put your faith in the truth.
                                2Th 2:14 God used our preaching as his way of inviting you to share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                                2Th 2:15 My friends, that's why you must remain faithful and follow closely what we taught you in person and by our letters.
                                2Th 2:16 God our Father loves us. He is kind and has given us eternal comfort and a wonderful hope. We pray that our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father
                                2Th 2:17 will encourage you and help you always to do and say the right thing.

                                I believe this is reassuring us that we will be out of here before any of this takes place.

                                Does this make any sense to anyone else? I believe that the ENTIRE chapter is proof that we are Raptured pre-trib.
                                Last edited by cheymat; September 15th, 2009, 11:34 AM. Reason: add info
                                Joh 14:6 λεγει αυτω ο ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου

                                Joh 14:6 dicit ei Iesus ego sum via et veritas et vita nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me

                                Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                                Comment

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