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  • Originally posted by Christina View Post
    Well, how else would he come at the rapture? Yes, he's bodily coming for both, difference is for one he doesn't touch down on earth and for the other, he does.

    Plain and simple.
    There you go, 3 bodily comings...which would require 2 more to go.

    So then everyone would agree, that is a first, second, and third bodily coming.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Janae View Post
      I am not sure how to apply what you stated in the above. A parousia (coming/bodily presence/being near) is an event, not a process. One does not become, or proceed to be more arrived or more present, therefore it is not a process. It either is or is not a parousia. He is either here or not here. The events listed above are all events that can happen when He is present, but it would be all during the same event of His coming/presence/parousia.
      Janae, thank you for your feedback. I understand what you are saying and it is possible (more than likely) that my use of the word "process" does not accurately depict what I am trying to explain. For example, when Christ died and went to Abraham's Bosom we do not consider His return in resurrection to be the second coming. Does that make sense? Does it clarify what I am trying to say by describing the first coming as an occurence detailed by other events? What I am basically trying to point out is that I see the Rapture as the first event of the second coming. Regardless of the clarity of my explanation, Christ is coming to rapture the Church before the tribulation and will physically return to earth after the Great Tribulation.

      God Bless and Maranatha!

      Comment


      • Its a birth, a rapture and a reign.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MKLevesque View Post
          Janae, thank you for your feedback. I understand what you are saying and it is possible (more than likely) that my use of the word "process" does not accurately depict what I am trying to explain. For example, when Christ died and went to Abraham's Bosom we do not consider His return in resurrection to be the second coming. Does that make sense? Does it clarify what I am trying to say by describing the first coming an occurence detailed by other events? What I am basically trying to point out is that I see the Rapture as the first event of the second coming. Regardless of the clarity of my explanation, Christ is coming to rapture the Church before the tribulation and will physically return to earth after the Great Tribulation.

          God Bless and Maranatha!
          Gotcha

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WalkTheLine View Post
            Time for linguistic gymnastics,

            When Christ comes for the bride and effects the harpzo, the great catching away, He does not come to earth so this is not a "second coming". The first coming He was on earth for about 33 years and lived with men. The second coming He will put His foot on the Mount of Olives, He is coming to live with men. At the great catching away He does not stay nor does He set foot on earth so He does not come to earth a second time.

            How's that for semantics?
            This is the understanding/wording I am familiar with (as are most I'm sure) ......the first second coming and the second second coming only will confuse people........you will only have to explain what you are talking about so why bother with new language

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Janae View Post
              There you go, 3 bodily comings...which would require 2 more to go.

              So then everyone would agree, that is a first, second, and third bodily coming.
              The first "bodily" appearance happened when He came to earth to be born of a virgin, the second "bodily" appearance will be the Rapture and the 3rd "bodily" appearance will be the Second Coming. You can call it the first second coming (although the Bible doesn't call it that) and I'll call it the Rapture for less confusion. You can call his coming after the Tribulation His second Second Coming and I will just call it the Second Coming for less confusion.

              Simple, right?

              Comment


              • Ya know what you guys? I love you so much and thank you for your wisdom!
                1 Thessalonians 5:4 (New International Version)

                4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

                Comment


                • So what so we do with gen 18 and the LORD appeared to Abraham, he looked up and saw three men coming to him, they sat and ate with Abraham and a fellowship offering began there as Abraham had Sarah make 3 measures of flour and make cakes.




                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WalkTheLine View Post
                    So what so we do with gen 18 and the LORD appeared to Abraham, he looked up and saw three men coming to him, they sat and ate with Abraham and a fellowship offering began there as Abraham had Sarah make 3 measures of flour and make cakes.




                    You do not have to do anything with it, unless you want to start a new topic outside of a coming/parousia.

                    Comment




                    • Something I've been known to do a time or two...

                      ........ hundred.


                      Pray without ceasing. 1 Thessalonians 5:17

                      A closed mouth gathers no feet. Unknown

                      Inside there's a thin woman trying to get out.
                      I'm keeping her sedated with chocolate

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Janae View Post
                        I am not sure how to apply what you stated in the above. A parousia (coming/bodily presence/being near) is an event, not a process. One does not become, or proceed to be more arrived or more present, therefore it is not a process. It either is or is not a parousia. He is either here or not here. The events listed above are all events that can happen when He is present, but it would be all during the same event of His coming/presence/parousia.
                        The word "parousia" is not event related in and of itself. That is determined by the context of where it is used. The word actually means "presence" in absolutely every sense which is possible, including a literal, physical presence in a specific location.

                        We know from 1 Thess 4 that the use of parousia in 2 Thess 2:1 places that "coming" in the air at the rapture of the Church as that is where Paul said it would occur. We also know that Jesus Himself will actually be there, as Paul said He would ("the Lord Himself shall descend..."). We also know that when parousia is used again in 2 Thess 2:8, it refers to Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, as we know from other Scripture that this is when and where He is when He destroys the antichrist.

                        What is NOT talked about very much is the third occurrence of the word parousia in 2 Thess 2, which is found here:

                        2 Thessalonians 2:9 {that is,} the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
                        Same Greek word. Same English word in translation..."coming". Think about this passage in relation to satan "coming" to have literal physical presence via the indwelling of the human antichrist (on the earth, Mid 70th week) and you will better understand why the word "parousia" cannot be related to a single event (as many tend to do by using it to relate solely to the Second Coming). It is my firm conviction that God Inspired Paul to use the word in this verse for the very reason you see confusion in this thread...so that we can avoid it. Perhaps He foresaw how so many would couple verse 1 and verse 8 and relate them to the same event?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by twisty58 View Post
                          I just finished reading Matt 24 (again) and am a little worried because when Jesus tells the disciples about the end, there is no mention of rapture. In fact, He talks about us going through these things. Can someone please talk me off of the ledge?

                          As you've probably figured out by now, "rapture" is not in the Bible, so I won't belabor that point. Whether we will go through these things or not, consider this:

                          Tribulation, thlipsis

                          Vine's:

                          primarily means "a pressing, pressure," anything which burdens the spirit.

                          Thayer:

                          properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure; in Biblical and ecclesiastical Greek metaphorically, oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits.

                          This word, thlipsis, is found forty-five times in the New Testament. In the majority of these instances it is used of Christians who are suffering for being Christians. By definition, tribulation is for believers. There are only three clear examples where it is used of unbelievers (Rom. 2:9, 2 Thess. 1:6 and Rev. 2:22). Jesus said, "In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). It would seem that the Great Tribulation is merely the time of great pressure for Christians. Persecution has been bad in the past, and it is still bad in other countries today, but there is yet to come a time of "great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will" (Matt. 24:21). But this is NOT the wrath (orge) of God. We are not appointed for wrath, but we are to expect tribulation.

                          Christians have suffered persecution since the church began. History shows that when the church was regularly being persecuted they were able to endure, but when persecution let off for a good period of time and then began again–every time without fail–multitudes would renounce their faith in Christ.

                          I'm sorry that I can't talk you off the ledge, things will get much worse before He returns for His bride. Please, make yourself ready.


                          IMHO,
                          just-a-servant

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JesusIsLord View Post
                            Dont worry! This message was to Israel, not the Church. The Church had not been created yet, so there is no mention of the Rapture in Matthew 24.....it is describing the Tribulation period. The Lord revealed the Rapture's details to Paul to give to the Churches.

                            God bless!

                            Sorry, I've heard this eschatology one time too many. It is in error and is causing great harm. Here, in my opinion, is why:

                            Jesus was talking to the disciples (Matt. 24:3), and it is true that they were Jews. The gospel had not been given to the Gentiles yet, so most everything Jesus said was to Jews. Jesus lived in Israel. Whenever he spoke he usually was talking to Jews. If Jesus talking to Jews makes a passage inapplicable to us, then that would take out most of the gospels. In this instance though, he was talking specifically to the disciples in private (v. 3). These men were the foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20) and in my opinion, they represent the church better than anyone. Furthermore, Jesus had already told Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church" in chapter 16 and given the disciples instructions for church discipline in chapter 18.

                            Understand that in Matt. 24, Jesus WAS talking to believers (the disciples). Whether you want to believe He was talking to the Jews or to the as yet unformed church or not is irrelevant. He was talking to believers. I count myself as one of those believers and am making the assumption that all who post here are too. Continuing to believe He was only talking to the Jews will only keep you from the clear warning and the richness the passage is trying to convey.


                            IMHO,
                            just-a-servant

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by just-a-servant View Post
                              As you've probably figured out by now, "rapture" is not in the Bible, so I won't belabor that point. Whether we will go through these things or not, consider this:

                              Tribulation, thlipsis

                              Vine's:

                              primarily means "a pressing, pressure," anything which burdens the spirit.

                              Thayer:

                              properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure; in Biblical and ecclesiastical Greek metaphorically, oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits.

                              This word, thlipsis, is found forty-five times in the New Testament. In the majority of these instances it is used of Christians who are suffering for being Christians. By definition, tribulation is for believers. There are only three clear examples where it is used of unbelievers (Rom. 2:9, 2 Thess. 1:6 and Rev. 2:22). Jesus said, "In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). It would seem that the Great Tribulation is merely the time of great pressure for Christians. Persecution has been bad in the past, and it is still bad in other countries today, but there is yet to come a time of "great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will" (Matt. 24:21). But this is NOT the wrath (orge) of God. We are not appointed for wrath, but we are to expect tribulation.

                              Christians have suffered persecution since the church began. History shows that when the church was regularly being persecuted they were able to endure, but when persecution let off for a good period of time and then began again–every time without fail–multitudes would renounce their faith in Christ.

                              I'm sorry that I can't talk you off the ledge, things will get much worse before He returns for His bride. Please, make yourself ready.


                              IMHO,
                              just-a-servant
                              Originally posted by just-a-servant View Post
                              Sorry, I've heard this eschatology one time too many. It is in error and is causing great harm. Here, in my opinion, is why:

                              Jesus was talking to the disciples (Matt. 24:3), and it is true that they were Jews. The gospel had not been given to the Gentiles yet, so most everything Jesus said was to Jews. Jesus lived in Israel. Whenever he spoke he usually was talking to Jews. If Jesus talking to Jews makes a passage inapplicable to us, then that would take out most of the gospels. In this instance though, he was talking specifically to the disciples in private (v. 3). These men were the foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20) and in my opinion, they represent the church better than anyone. Furthermore, Jesus had already told Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church" in chapter 16 and given the disciples instructions for church discipline in chapter 18.

                              Understand that in Matt. 24, Jesus WAS talking to believers (the disciples). Whether you want to believe He was talking to the Jews or to the as yet unformed church or not is irrelevant. He was talking to believers. I count myself as one of those believers and am making the assumption that all who post here are too. Continuing to believe He was only talking to the Jews will only keep you from the clear warning and the richness the passage is trying to convey.


                              IMHO,
                              just-a-servant
                              just-a-servant,

                              What's really cool is that Our Lord promotes the watching of His coming at the rapture (greek = harpazo, latin = raptiere or rapturo).

                              The word "rapture" is NOT in the Bible. At least Our Bibles. If you have a Latin translation of the Bible, it's there...and here's why:

                              1 The. 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

                              Those two words "caught up" in the original greek are one word: harpazo

                              When the greek was translated to latin: harpazo = raptiere or rapturo

                              that is the origin of the word "rapture."

                              If you can, prove this false.

                              Other scripture:

                              Luk. 21:36

                              Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
                              [33] Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
                              [34] And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
                              [35] For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
                              [36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
                              Joh. 14:1-3

                              [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
                              [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
                              [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

                              Rev. 3:10

                              Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

                              We're even offered one of the Crowns; the Watcher's Crown or Crown of Righteosness
                              2 Tim. 4:8

                              And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
                              [5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
                              [6] For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
                              [7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
                              [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by twisty58 View Post
                                I just finished reading Matt 24 (again) and am a little worried because when Jesus tells the disciples about the end, there is no mention of rapture. In fact, He talks about us going through these things. Can someone please talk me off of the ledge?
                                Hi, I share your concern. I have always wondered why some texts in Matthew 24 are taken as "rapture-verses" while most people say Matthew 24 is about the tribulation. For example:

                                34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

                                38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark...

                                40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

                                These verses are often linked to the rapture, but isn´t Jesus still talking to the Jews and not to the Church in the whole of Matthew 24

                                Comment

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