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  • Originally posted by BruceM View Post
    Hi all

    I tend to believe that Matthew 24 does mention the rapture. Besides all the other comments people have made, there is one more strong idea that the rapture is in view.

    When people start taking the mark of the beast, they begin turning in their own mothers, daughters, etc. to the government if they do not have the mark. It is hard for me to believe that someone with the mark is working in a field next to someone without the mark, or someone with the mark is in bed with someone without the mark, etc.

    Also we have to consider that if you don't have the mark, you can't buy or sell anything, which also should mean you can't get work in a mill, or in a field, etc, unless it is your own and nobody from the government knows about it and beheads you.

    To me, the mark of the beast will separate the believers from the non-believers long before the second coming, but the rapture will be the first to separate them.

    Love Bruce
    I had the same thought. You are so right. There is no way Christians and non believers will be working and living together by the end of the trib. Also, I will add that the verse seems to suggest (two in bed one will be taken and the other left) that there are many Christians and nonbelievers (almost half and half). If it was describing the events leading up to the 2nd coming it would read more like " and two hundred million men fighting in the battle were taken and 500 hiding in the hills were left. But then again it couldn't say that because the Bible teaches that Jesus kills most at the battle scene with the brightness of his coming and the sword coming our of His mouth which I think signifies the word of God. Anyway, I can't see how the verses mentioned can be reconciled to the 2nd coming. I have noticed there is a lot of commentary on why they do, but no one is answering the following questions

    How does the scripture in question support people not knowing the day and the hour of the 2nd coming?

    How can we say that not knowing the day and the hour is for both the rapture and the 2nd coming?

    Why do the verses suggest that life is going along as normal with people working and sleeping when we know that is ludicrous with all the horrific events going on at the 2nd coming.

    Since we believe in the rapture why is it so important that we not believe that there are verses actually describing it?
    II Peter 1
    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RaptureReady2day View Post

      Matthew 24
      3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

      Look at the 2nd question. What coming where the apostles looking for? It was the 2nd coming, when the King would be set up, and the 12 would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. The Kingdom was the focus of most of the Old Testament and all the way up until the apostle Paul came on the scene and explained the Rapture and the church age of grace.
      This is what really helped the lightbulb go on for me!!

      Thank you! Sometimes I think I/we read and take things out of context and don't actually 'read' what is stated.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rapturetime View Post
        I had the same thought. You are so right. There is no way Christians and non believers will be working and living together by the end of the trib. Also, I will add that the verse seems to suggest (two in bed one will be taken and the other left) that there are many Christians and nonbelievers (almost half and half). If it was describing the events leading up to the 2nd coming it would read more like " and two hundred million men fighting in the battle were taken and 500 hiding in the hills were left. But then again it couldn't say that because the Bible teaches that Jesus kills most at the battle scene with the brightness of his coming and the sword coming our of His mouth which I think signifies the word of God. Anyway, I can't see how the verses mentioned can be reconciled to the 2nd coming. I have noticed there is a lot of commentary on why they do, but no one is answering the following questions

        How does the scripture in question support people not knowing the day and the hour of the 2nd coming?

        How can we say that not knowing the day and the hour is for both the rapture and the 2nd coming?

        Why do the verses suggest that life is going along as normal with people working and sleeping when we know that is ludicrous with all the horrific events going on at the 2nd coming.

        Since we believe in the rapture why is it so important that we not believe that there are verses actually describing it?
        See.....those are my questions as well!! Now I am REALLY confused!!! I have a headache from thinking so much!!

        Comment


        • Then, you all are saying that the Bride of Christ is not the Church. Think about it. He is talking about two different things in Ch. 24. Otherwise, why does He talk about the Virgins?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sirgak View Post
            I tend to agree with this. In the parallel account in Luke, they asked (in response to they shall be taken), was "where"? He told them, where the body is, the vulture is also. That doesn't sound like a Rapture, but a solemn (and deadly) judgment.

            Luke 17:34-37
            34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
            35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
            36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."
            37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."
            I agree with this explanation as well.

            Comment


            • Totally confused now........

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mom211 View Post
                What I find difficult is my dh's opinion that we are going to go thru the tribulation. It's all doom & gloom about how bad it is going to be and how those who are waiting for the rapture will fall away from the faith when things get worse. It's a constant stream of distressing negative talk. I've told him we aren't going to debate this, but merely talking about the news sets him off. Even a simple lunch out went bad when he brought up more distressing comments. All his worry makes me feel like our family is a burden to him.
                If he won't agree with your pre-trib views, tell him that just b/c we are pre-trib doesn't mean we don't know the order of events in the Trib and what will be happening. Tell him that "if the rapture were not to take place and the events of the Trib started unfolding, pre-tribbers would recognize it and understand what's happening, not turn away from Christ" This might take away some of the doom and gloom, despite the fact that we know the Rapture is going to occur...IMO it seems like he isn't open to that possibility at all, so at least tell him that.
                "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man, and God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out, so that you can stand up under it"~1 Corinthians 10:13

                Keep your eyes on the skies, for the Lord is coming!

                Part of the RR CHEER SQUAD!
                sigpic

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rescuedbyChrist View Post
                  Then, you all are saying that the Bride of Christ is not the Church. Think about it. He is talking about two different things in Ch. 24. Otherwise, why does He talk about the Virgins?
                  If you are referring to the virgins in Matthew 25:1-13, these are the "bridesmaids", so to speak, who will attend the wedding supper (after the trib, on the earth)... they are not talking about the virgin (singular) Bride of Christ.

                  Luke 12:36-37 is a passage which shows what will occur "when He will return from the wedding" (with His Bride, a "week" later [i.e. 7 years]) for the wedding supper, or wedding feast. Those in the trib who endure to the end ("watching" in faith) will be welcomed and will enjoy the feast as guests. "He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them." They are the virgins (the bridesmaids), but these are not the Church, who will have been with Christ during those intervening years.

                  There is a good thread somewhere around here that covers this pretty well.

                  Comment


                  • Thank you all for responding.

                    I see that there are some varying opinions out there, but after sitting on it for a few days, I feel that being so dogmatic about being Pre-Trib is probably going to cause more harm than good. Condemning people for their interpretation of scripture is not my place. I fully believe we will all have to be held accountable to our Lord Jesus at the Bema Seat of Christ in regards to how we handled the Word of Truth, and for those that take people's Blessed Hope away will certainly regret their errant teachings at that time. However, I am not the judge. Romans 14 is hitting me hard right now:

                    Romans 14:4
                    Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
                    Being a servant for Christ, I know that He will make me stand, as well as all the other servants out there, regardless of their interpretation on the Rapture. So I have decided that when situations arise where there is an argument over the Rapture, I will simply state my case and base it on the clear scriptures, and leave it at that. If I stand firm on the Word of God, I am convinced that the Holy Spirit will guide me in my discussion and help me show them the truth in love. Should they not choose to believe the truth, I have to let that go because my job is not to make them believe. My job, and all of our jobs, is to show them the truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. But you better believe that if that person is teaching their errant doctrine to a fellow brother or sister that may not know any better, I will be quick to refute their assertions, at least to show that brother or sister that there IS hope: That hope is in Christ, that we are no longer under condemnation, and that we WILL be rescued from the wrath to come.


                    Seated:

                    The reason I said that being Pan-Mil is a lazy man's way out is because they are purposefully and willfully neglecting parts of scripture. If it was not important to know and understand end-times events, why was there an entire book written about it? Why did Jesus go through all the trouble to show John the future, have him write it down and disperse it to the churches, just so they end up saying "It doesnt matter if we know how it happens because it will happen the way God wants it to happen"? Why would Paul have written two letters primarily centered around the return of Jesus for the Church (Thessalonians)?

                    As for the Pretribbers who stay quiet, I have no problem with that because they have studied and picked a side. If they dont want to be vocal about it to avoid arguments, I can understand that. But to say that ANY part of the Bible doesnt matter is blasphemy. The Gospel of Jesus cannot be parted into tiny tidbits where we can pick and choose which sections we like and throw out the sections we dont. It's one big package deal. The entire Gospel should be studied carefully and with prayer for discernment. The Gospel is the Gospel. The Gospel without a part of the Gospel is not "the Gospel" at all, which is why we should be so adamant against the Emergent Church who loves to change the Gospel to fit current societal trends and "tickle the ears".

                    To be clear, I dont think you feel this way.....otherwise, why would you be posting on a Pre-Trib board? . I just think we have to be very careful not to get lazy with or apply human understanding to the Gospel. God is the perfect creator of the Gospel.....I, being a mere human (and VERY imperfect at that!) sure wouldn't want to be caught judging which parts of it are useful and which parts need not be given attention.

                    I agree with you to a point about Pretribbers being the least concerned. This is true as it is related to the Rapture itself, but if you take away someone's Blessed Hope, they will live differently prior to the Rapture. They will live expecting to see the Man of Lawlessness and will prepare for going through the Tribulation instead of focusing on and trusting in the Lord. This can lead to worry, anxiety, and all sorts of negative things. But looking for the Lord's Coming for us before the Hour of Trial keeps our priorities straight and being about His business, lest we get caught up in the happenings of this world. Just my opinion though....

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Last Samurai View Post
                      I think you would be causing a fight amongst the Lord's children with this attitude. Why not direct your energy towards the unsaved? The only person that cares which Christian is "right" is the prideful one. Let it go and work on saving LOST souls, not arguing with a brother/sister in Christ about a NON-SALVATION issue.
                      good word last samurai!!! we sometimes get so caught up among each other fighting about things that have no bearing on salvation...and all the while, the world is dying and going to hell! i am a pre-tribber...i know that i am right... but i don't get caught up in it if someone else has a differing view...everyone has a right to be wrong haha...that was sarcasm, just so i'm clear.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by acceptedinthebeloved View Post
                        If you are referring to the virgins in Matthew 25:1-13, these are the "bridesmaids", so to speak, who will attend the wedding supper (after the trib, on the earth)... they are not talking about the virgin (singular) Bride of Christ.

                        Luke 12:36-37 is a passage which shows what will occur "when He will return from the wedding" (with His Bride, a "week" later [i.e. 7 years]) for the wedding supper, or wedding feast. Those in the trib who endure to the end ("watching" in faith) will be welcomed and will enjoy the feast as guests. "He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them." They are the virgins (the bridesmaids), but these are not the Church, who will have been with Christ during those intervening years.

                        There is a good thread somewhere around here that covers this pretty well.
                        But, when you study about the jewish wedding, they attend the bride. And, the bridegroom comes to get the bride not the "bridesmaids." So, this really doesn't make sense. I think the virgins represent the Church. I believe the foolish virgins are the ones that attend church but aren't really saved. Who else could they be? They were waiting. They were thinking He was coming for them. Just as He says some will say "Lord, Lord". They truly believe He is the Lord. They just haven't given themselves to Him. They didn't just run out of oil, they didn't bring any. Think to whom He is speaking. To His followers. No one else was present. And, think, Judas was present- not a true follower. He is speaking to the Church. So, if we are to be taken in a rapture, knowing about "The End of the End" doesn't pertain to us. We will be gone already.

                        Don't get me wrong, I believe in a Rapture. However, some of these verses come the closest to talking me out of it.

                        And, in I Thes. 5:1-11, Paul talks about the day of the Lord like it is the rapture, not the judgment. We keep talking about peace and safety being a sign of the times. And, he is talking to the Church. So, why does he call it the day of the Lord?

                        This can really confuse you.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JesusIsLord View Post
                          Thank you all for responding.

                          I see that there are some varying opinions out there, but after sitting on it for a few days, I feel that being so dogmatic about being Pre-Trib is probably going to cause more harm than good. Condemning people for their interpretation of scripture is not my place. I fully believe we will all have to be held accountable to our Lord Jesus at the Bema Seat of Christ in regards to how we handled the Word of Truth, and for those that take people's Blessed Hope away will certainly regret their errant teachings at that time. However, I am not the judge. Romans 14 is hitting me hard right now:

                          Romans 14:4


                          Being a servant for Christ, I know that He will make me stand, as well as all the other servants out there, regardless of their interpretation on the Rapture. So I have decided that when situations arise where there is an argument over the Rapture, I will simply state my case and base it on the clear scriptures, and leave it at that. If I stand firm on the Word of God, I am convinced that the Holy Spirit will guide me in my discussion and help me show them the truth in love. Should they not choose to believe the truth, I have to let that go because my job is not to make them believe. My job, and all of our jobs, is to show them the truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. But you better believe that if that person is teaching their errant doctrine to a fellow brother or sister that may not know any better, I will be quick to refute their assertions, at least to show that brother or sister that there IS hope: That hope is in Christ, that we are no longer under condemnation, and that we WILL be rescued from the wrath to come.


                          Seated:

                          The reason I said that being Pan-Mil is a lazy man's way out is because they are purposefully and willfully neglecting parts of scripture. If it was not important to know and understand end-times events, why was there an entire book written about it? Why did Jesus go through all the trouble to show John the future, have him write it down and disperse it to the churches, just so they end up saying "It doesnt matter if we know how it happens because it will happen the way God wants it to happen"? Why would Paul have written two letters primarily centered around the return of Jesus for the Church (Thessalonians)?

                          As for the Pretribbers who stay quiet, I have no problem with that because they have studied and picked a side. If they dont want to be vocal about it to avoid arguments, I can understand that. But to say that ANY part of the Bible doesnt matter is blasphemy. The Gospel of Jesus cannot be parted into tiny tidbits where we can pick and choose which sections we like and throw out the sections we dont. It's one big package deal. The entire Gospel should be studied carefully and with prayer for discernment. The Gospel is the Gospel. The Gospel without a part of the Gospel is not "the Gospel" at all, which is why we should be so adamant against the Emergent Church who loves to change the Gospel to fit current societal trends and "tickle the ears".

                          To be clear, I dont think you feel this way.....otherwise, why would you be posting on a Pre-Trib board? . I just think we have to be very careful not to get lazy with or apply human understanding to the Gospel. God is the perfect creator of the Gospel.....I, being a mere human (and VERY imperfect at that!) sure wouldn't want to be caught judging which parts of it are useful and which parts need not be given attention.

                          I agree with you to a point about Pretribbers being the least concerned. This is true as it is related to the Rapture itself, but if you take away someone's Blessed Hope, they will live differently prior to the Rapture. They will live expecting to see the Man of Lawlessness and will prepare for going through the Tribulation instead of focusing on and trusting in the Lord. This can lead to worry, anxiety, and all sorts of negative things. But looking for the Lord's Coming for us before the Hour of Trial keeps our priorities straight and being about His business, lest we get caught up in the happenings of this world. Just my opinion though....
                          Well said, good and faithful servant.

                          IMHO,
                          just-a-servant

                          Comment


                          • I can only assume that beating them about the head and shoulders with a blunt object is right out.


                            Hope that helps.

                            Comment


                            • Responding to the OP.

                              First off, I do not believe rapture timing is a salvation issue. Yes I do believe its important, but, let's face it. IF you're saved, whether you've heard of the rapture or not, whether you think it happens, first, middle or last, you are going when the Lord calls. Now that we have that out of the way...

                              Scripture gives the perfect answer as to how we should teach....

                              AMP version says it very well
                              2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome (fighting and contending). Instead, he must be kindly to everyone and mild-tempered [preserving the bond of peace]; he must be a skilled and suitable teacher, patient and forbearing and willing to suffer wrong.
                              2Ti 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],


                              The main point I'm stressing here is gentleness, patience, and kindness in teaching. I do believe the Pre-trib view is accurate, but Scripture also teaches that Love is more important than any gift we can have, including knowledge. I say the most important aspect of the Rapture, is that Jesus IS COMING BACK FOR US. I'm willing to unite in that truth with my non-pre-trib brothers and sisters. They'll still love me when we're on the way up in the pre-trib rapture, and I say "I Told ya so!!!"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rescuedbyChrist View Post

                                And, in I Thes. 5:1-11, Paul talks about the day of the Lord like it is the rapture, not the judgment. We keep talking about peace and safety being a sign of the times. And, he is talking to the Church. So, why does he call it the day of the Lord?

                                This can really confuse you.
                                Paul is not speaking of the rapture here. Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord which is after the rapture.

                                In the NT the day of the Lord occurs only in Acts 2:20, 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Thess 2:2 (RV), 2 Peter 3:10 and Rev 6:17. A careful study of all these passages indicates that the day of The Lord describes conditions on earth after the rapture of the church. It is solely the time of judgement on Israel and the nations.

                                Comment

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