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  • Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
    Ah, that was it, thanks, Jlutz!

    I guess I just don't understand why someone would write that knowing it's not the truth, prophecy is thrilling enough.

    But maybe even more concerning is that it has confused some people who read the books and find things that are not Biblical in them about prophecy and believe them to be from Scripture - "But it says in Left Behind...!" Folks don't often know those books are as *fiction-y* as they are.
    I agree, they major in the fiction line. For instance when reading them I kept thinking how tame they were, Christian men writing about a time they couldn't bring themselves to describe in all its depraved awfulness. I'm not judging them, on the contrary, I thought this knowing that I couldn't imagine the scenario they were trying to describe because we are still privileged to have the Holy Spirit 'holding back' this horror. As a fiction read they are enjoyable and we can flirt a little with the theme knowing we will be going in the rapture and hopefully awaken the reader to be diligent to pray and witness to those we know are unsaved.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Poppycat View Post
      I agree, they major in the fiction line. For instance when reading them I kept thinking how tame they were, Christian men writing about a time they couldn't bring themselves to describe in all its depraved awfulness. I'm not judging them, on the contrary, I thought this knowing that I couldn't imagine the scenario they were trying to describe because we are still privileged to have the Holy Spirit 'holding back' this horror. As a fiction read they are enjoyable and we can flirt a little with the theme knowing we will be going in the rapture and hopefully awaken the reader to be diligent to pray and witness to those we know are unsaved.
      I think your right,

      so many people don't like these books because they think its unbiblical, but the authors intent wasnt to write a commentary on Revelation, but to write a fictional story that follows what they think could happen.
      For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jlutz View Post
        I think your right,

        so many people don't like these books because they think its unbiblical, but the authors intent wasnt to write a commentary on Revelation, but to write a fictional story that follows what they think could happen.
        Of course not a "commentary on Revelation", it's fiction and not a theology series, but it causes confusion to "think what could happen" is outside of the bounds of the Book on which one is basing one's thinking.

        One could just as easily create a narrative on the fact that no one will be forced to take the MOB (Biblical) as that folks would be held down to take the MOB against their will (unBiblical - the fact that it's a willful allegiance to the AC/satan is what makes God so mad that He withdraws any hope for salvation after that point.)
        "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


        Jesus + something = nothing

        Jesus + nothing = Everything

        Comment


        • Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
          Of course not a "commentary on Revelation", it's fiction and not a theology series, but it causes confusion to "think what could happen" is outside of the bounds of the Book on which one is basing one's thinking.

          One could just as easily create a narrative on the fact that no one will be forced to take the MOB (Biblical) as that folks would be held down to take the MOB against their will (unBiblical - the fact that it's a willful allegiance to the AC/satan is what makes God so mad that He withdraws any hope for salvation after that point.)
          That's true, those that read only *fiction tribulation themed* books and do not bother to study eschatology or commentaries that are scripture based will have a skewed view of the MOB and other stuff. However (and I am saying this in a very small voice iSong) isn't the mark in tandem with worship of the AC/satan the problem God has that He withdraws hope an Salvation after that point?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Poppycat View Post
            However (and I am saying this in a very small voice iSong) isn't the mark in tandem with worship of the AC/satan the problem God has that He withdraws hope an Salvation after that point?
            Here are the verses I was thinking about:

            9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

            10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

            11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
            Revelation 14:9-11

            So, if I'm understanding you correctly, yes, the MOB and the worship of the beast are, in tandem, what provokes God's wrath. Actions follow belief. If someone is not trusting God, they will want to cast their lot with the AC to be able to buy and sell. Not to do that - be part of society in that way - will necessitate faith in God's provision and not the AC for minute-to-minute living.

            We have no indication that they won't indeed be in tandem, meaning that someone could get the MOB but not be rejecting God. In both instances mentioned here they are together in thought.

            Like we also see "If any man worship the beast and his image..." it's not two separate things, you can't worship just the image and not the beast or vice versa, it's a package deal. There won't be anyone who volunteers his hand or forehead who won't know he's rejecting God for the beast. That's what makes God so furious.

            It will be the watershed moment, those who do not have the mark will be outside of society, unable to buy or sell, they will have *only* God and the goodness of others who risk their lives to help them. Whether people help one another in the faith and the Jews will be the basis for the Sheep and Goat Judgment. But this is how it starts.

            Remember that in Hebrew there are no exclamation points or underlines for emphasis, when you wanted to make a point you repeated it, like in Proverbs and many other places in the Bible.

            We may not now know how it will look to those Trib folks, but it will be a clear choice - get the MOB/worship the beast or worship God (or be on the road to worshipping Him.)

            The *real* AC will not be satisfied with fakery in those that worship him, he will want to rout out true believers in God he so despises. I believe that's the nature of the spiritual warfare, not seeing how many marks he can hand out but outing and slaughtering God's people.
            "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


            Jesus + something = nothing

            Jesus + nothing = Everything

            Comment


            • You're right iSong, it is just wishful thinking that if the mark of the beast is taken, voluntarily or not, that unless the person actually worships the beast they just may have another chance. So I read Revelation 14 account of the three angels again. One is flying in mid-air proclaiming the eternal gospel to every nation etc., one to declare Babylon the Great has fallen and one who follows warning in a loud voice against worshiping the beast and his image and also receives the mark will drink of the wine of God's fury. When it comes down to it, God is going to great lengths to warn and that is all the chances anyone should need. But I am sure that you are already way ahead of me so I'm just thinking aloud here. Just thinking also, when Jesus wanted to make a point he said verily, verily as a heads up to take notice.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Shannon9602 View Post
                IDK.... But I think you will have a choice to either take the mark or not. Satan tries to imitate Jesus in many ways. Jesus didn't force us to accept him just like I think Satan will not force us to accept him and his mark. I think that is why rapture will occur before all this none can be force...God will take the innocent and saved people out of this world... babies/children, some prisoners, and some of those with disabilities. Those left behind will be left with a choice.
                "He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead..."

                It doesn't seem like there will be a choice to me. The image and the mark go hand-in-hand. If you take the mark, you worship the image. If you worship the image, you take the mark.

                Comment


                • The part of the whole battle with God and Satan is who can get people to follow them by CHOICE!

                  Satan will never usurp God's position but he is trying to be like God so he has to give his followers choice (with lots of unpleasant persuasion no doubt).

                  Satan also wants worship as a god (he can never be God of course).

                  So the pathetic creature is doing all he can to get followers of his own. Unfortunately he will suceed with some. Nevertheless he doesn't fully suceed in his plans of deposing the Lord. Jesus finishes him off.

                  So there is no real victory for the devil if people are forced to take the mark of the beast because then he wouldn't be like God.


                  Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MJ123123 View Post
                    It doesn't seem like there will be a choice to me. The image and the mark go hand-in-hand. If you take the mark, you worship the image. If you worship the image, you take the mark.
                    Read it again, this time noticing the bolded portion, which is a choice if there ever was one.

                    Originally posted by MJ123123 View Post
                    "He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead..."
                    Don't panic! Just be Rapture Ready.

                    Joel 3:2

                    I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MJ123123 View Post
                      "He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead..."

                      It doesn't seem like there will be a choice to me. The image and the mark go hand-in-hand. If you take the mark, you worship the image. If you worship the image, you take the mark.
                      Not sure how you came to this or where you're going, but A=>B, not B=>A. The MOB will not be forced on anyone, it's the choice people make to take the mark/worship the beast that ignites God's fury.
                      "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


                      Jesus + something = nothing

                      Jesus + nothing = Everything

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
                        Not sure how you came to this or where you're going, but A=>B, not B=>A. The MOB will not be forced on anyone, it's the choice people make to take the mark/worship the beast that ignites God's fury.
                        And that choice cause many to be persecuted and/or killed.

                        Comment


                        • Is this similar to the unpardonable sin talked about by Fruchtenbaum? The jews (the Sanhedrin and others) who rejected our Lord, that generation from 30 AD to 70 AD, was lost to salvation. The Sanhedrin accused our Lord of being demon possessed and that did it for God and sealed their fate. I know it is literal-the mark but isn't it a spiritual one as well? The Sanhedrin committed the worst national sin (pertaining to Israel) there was. The mark is the worst universal sin that can be committed.
                          'For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.' PSALM 12:5.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by iSong6:3 View Post
                            Not sure how you came to this or where you're going, but A=>B, not B=>A. The MOB will not be forced on anyone, it's the choice people make to take the mark/worship the beast that ignites God's fury.
                            I'm not sure if I can make it any more simple.

                            Comment


                            • New take on the mark of the beast

                              Remember in the 70's when rumors were going around that France was shipping thounsands of guillotines to USA? Because we try to make scripture fit into our preconcieved mold I try to keep an open mind on some interpretation as long as they do not violate God's word.
                              Saying that, I have viewed interviews with Doug Hamp on his book Corupting the image. His interpretation is fallen angels come down to earth as super being aliens. The human race is offered dna modification into the antichrists dna (making this the mob). He goes though the super hero gendere that has swept our young people, the idol worship of the great athletes (this kind happened during Romes height in their games).
                              I put this out on the forum for discussion. This could also explain the trib where people are unable to die?

                              Comment


                              • I've wondered the same thing - probably reading the same authors as you.

                                My personal flesh struggle has been excess weight - since early childhood. It is my thorn in the side. I've often wondered if we might be offered a "miracle cure" for such physical flaws - just accept this vaccine that will "upgrade your DNA" and you will miraculously lose weight, look younger, etc! Would I be able to resist such a temptation? How hard would it be? It also would become incredibly obvious who had taken the mark and who had not. Just a thought!

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