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The Biblical Argument for the Rebuilding of Babylon *Merged*

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  • #31
    Originally posted by copilot View Post
    I think when looking at prophecy from this side (hasn't happened yet), we tend to think of these things in our paradigm...i.e. Babylon as a big, busy, world center as in a New York City - type. If we shift our pre-formed ideas, it is very possible that Babylon can be set up as prophesied without a huge city around it. They could literally build a world center "palace" in a matter of months, with everything connected, as a fortress (just like the U.S. embassy in Iraq now!), that would be THE meeting place, and center of all world business. This is VERY possible, especially with the focus on the historical side of the city. They will no doubt build off of that theme for the "center of the world" to rule, with all the history behind it.

    I think we need to not limit ourselves to what we *think* these things will look like. JMHO

    Hmmm everyone He has an interesting point. A world center for commerce in the 21st century need not resemble NYC or Chicago with a sprawling urban landscape. We have the technology today (just look at Wallstreet) that if the NWO desired to for symbolic reasons and a gumption from Satan to setup head quarters in Babylon and run all the worlds finances and commerce they could. I forgot that today we are an electronic and internet based society no longer do we need a series of large buildings in order to run the world. Babylon can still be the center of world commerce without looking like Dubai I wonder why ive never seen it like this before Something like this could easily be setup rather quickly let alone if there is a time gap between the rapture and the start of the trib!

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    • #32
      When the Olympics choose a city, that city normally has a little less than 4 years to get ready and build everything they need to host. I don't think it is inconceivable for Babylon to get rebuilt in less than 4 years.

      Comment


      • #33
        Keep in mind as well -- correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Saddam Hussein's various palaces in and around Baghdad still standing? Could that serve as part of the infrastructure for some kind of new Babylon seat of government or headquarters for the AC? And isn't Baghdad not very far from where the original Babylon was? Perhaps it is even possible that Baghdad might be renamed New Babylon . . . just thinking out loud here.
        "Oir is leatsa an rioghachd, agus an cumhachd, agus a gloir, gu siorraidh, Amen." ("For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever, Amen" -- Scots Gaelic)

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        • #34
          That could be....again I say it depends on our limited vision of prophecy. I think everything goes out the window once the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. The world will go back to the way it was, with supernatural events that we can't even imagine, but with Satan on the loose, his minions will do amazing things. I see no problem at all with building a world government center/fortress in a matter of months...in fact, I wouldn't doubt that the plans are all in place now, and just need to be implemented. Just as the Jewish Temple is ready to be built...everything is done, it just needs to be implemented.

          That could very well be what is happening in Babylon. Why on earth would the US build the world's largest embassy/fortress like they did in Iraq? What a strange place to do it, wouldn't ya think? Unless, of course, there was a geographical reason that we do not know of quite yet......

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Musician in His house View Post
            Keep in mind as well -- correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Saddam Hussein's various palaces in and around Baghdad still standing? Could that serve as part of the infrastructure for some kind of new Babylon seat of government or headquarters for the AC? And isn't Baghdad not very far from where the original Babylon was? Perhaps it is even possible that Baghdad might be renamed New Babylon . . . just thinking out loud here.
            Apparently it's about 50 miles from Baghdad to Babylon.

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            • #36
              Prince...The rapture is always imminent, nothing in scripture tells us that "Babylon is rebuilt and then the rapture comes". Just because something might look a decade or two away for literal Babylon, in our human view, does not mean the rapture cannot happen today. It also does not mean that it will take that long for "headquarters" to be set in place for the a/c. Remember, it is the a/c who will destroy "Ecclesiastical Babylon", he uses her for the first half of the trib, but destroys her in the 2nd half when he turns to world domination and demand that he be worshiped. The two get confused at times.

              We know literal Babylon is going to be the Babylon that is judged as there are prophecies still unfulfilled for her. (Jerm 50/51 for example) Zech. 5:5-11 show us that Babylon is where evil is going to be set and the symbolism of the ephah shows that it is also the economic capital. To further avoid any confusion scripture uses the names of "Shinar" and "land of Chaldeans" which are the other names for Babylon. There should be no confusion of a literal Babylon or not when God has used more than one identifier to avoid the confusion.

              Is 13-14 describes literal Babylon's destruction, it also gives the timing "Day of Jehovah" which is the Great Trib, so we know it is future and it's fate will be like Sodom and Gomorrah-never happened to literal Babylon yet.

              A couple points...remember we cannot be doing newspaper exegesis to interpret prophecy. Remember, before Israel was literally reborn as a nation in 1917-1948, "Israel" was made to be allegorical by some. The more literal we take scripture (when no other interpretation is obviously being implied/symbolized) the less trouble and confusion we end up in.

              Babylon (Iraq) is the birthplace of all false religious systems and God has a plan for her in the future and her destiny sure.

              Mystery Babylon is a false religious system, literal Babylon is Babylon, Iraq, both are going to be destroyed in the tribulation period. The first by the a/c, the second God is going to raise up Gentiles against Babylon and then she will be destroyed as Sodom and Gomorrah and even into the MK it will never be inhabited again.

              Babylon is a demonic stronghold, even the fallen angels that lead the demonic invasion of Rev 9 are bound there in the Euphrates...

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              • #37
                I don't believe Babylon refers to a city but rather an area or empire from which much of the worlds false religions and much of the worlds sin originated. Go to RR and read Wilfred Hahn's two articles on Flying Scrolls and Baskets. God's wrath toward this area has been building for centuries and IMO he will gather the evil to this area and destroy it once and for all. This will include false religions as well as the monetary systems that have enslaved the working class for centuries.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by lex09
                  Jeruselum, the very city that crucified our Lord has also been considered MB as well.
                  No, you might be confusing this verse, which also tells us it is not "literal" but "spiritual"....


                  Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I know there is much debate over it (and I don't mean to stir up anything), but Babylon in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Church. These sites are pretty good in explaing the issue far better than any BBoard post I could make:

                    http://www.thebereancall.org/topic/catholic
                    http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/
                    http://www.understandthetimes.org/

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by jtvol View Post
                      I know there is much debate over it (and I don't mean to stir up anything), but Babylon in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Church. These sites are pretty good in explaing the issue far better than any BBoard post I could make:

                      http://www.thebereancall.org/topic/catholic
                      http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/
                      http://www.understandthetimes.org/
                      Again.....there is a literal physical Babylon and and Ecclesiastical one. One is destroyed by the a/c, the other God raises an army to destroy and then it will burn forever, even during the MK.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lex09
                        Please consider:
                        Some might ask, "If the 'whore' is Jerusalem, how could the 'beast' be Nero Caesar, from Rome? Would not the "beast" be someone who rules over Jerusalem? The answer is that Caesar DID rule over Jerusalem. The highest religious authorities in Jerusalem, and all the Jews living in Jerusalem, even admitted that Caesar is their king (John 19:15).
                        You didn't provide a link, but that blurb sounds like an amillenial view. The amillenialists believe that all prophecy has already been fulfilled (IE, the whore was ancient Jerusalem and the beast was Caeser) as of 70 AD and that we're living in the MK. Obviously the participants of this board do not subscribe to those beliefs

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by HisAlways View Post
                          A city can be built in a few months, with enough money and manpower. Joel Rosenberg states just this in his book "Epicenter". Considering this will be the center of world wealth, and rich ptb, it is far from inconceivable that this city will be able to be constructed in little time.
                          Don't forget all the Oil that is in Iraq that spells $$$

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                          • #43
                            The Bible also mentions Gehenna (a literal garbage dump site) as the place unbelievers go when they die, which everyone agrees is used metaphorically for Hell, and not referring to the literal site.

                            I think Revelation uses the name Babylon to refer to an empire in the last days that will exhibit the same characteristics of power, pride, and luxury exhibited by ancient Babylon. It will be the same type of empire, but existing in a different time and run by different people, so I see no reason why it can't be in a different location as well - is an empire defined by its location? For an empire to "re-emerge" does it have to be in the same geographical position for it to be a valid re-emergence? That strikes me as quite arbitrary. I think what makes Babylon Babylon is its characteristics, not its coordinates.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by PrinceSomeday
                              Given that the REAL CITY of Babylon is just ruins today, with no news of any immediate change in that status,
                              There are ten pages of interesting things concerning Babylon here:
                              http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=19189


                              Originally posted by PrinceSomeday
                              and the cost and time involved in making it ready to be the "capital of the NWO" (10-20 years),
                              If the rapture happened today and the covenant confirmed tomorrow, there would
                              still be more than enough time for it to happen. The world can change dramatically
                              in less than seven years. How much has it changed since September 11, 2001?


                              Originally posted by PrinceSomeday
                              Time to get on with life, serve, tell others about Jesus
                              We should be doing that anyway. If any Christian has life on hold waiting for the
                              rapture, they really don't have a grasp on what and who we're called to be in the
                              first place.


                              Originally posted by PrinceSomeday
                              Good job ATLB. Your strong argument has really ruined my day!!!!
                              I'm sorry that a few pics and a couple of links on a discussion board ruined your day
                              and caused you so much grief.

                              For what it's worth, that "strong argument" included me saying that "The pieces are falling
                              into place now. I don't think it really reaches its height of power until after the rapture and
                              during the trib."


                              Originally posted by ClarionCall
                              Don't give up! I think the literal Babylon interpretation is wrong. Seeing the video of Babylon brought this home to me. Do some google searches of other web sites and you will find lots of other interpretations of what Revelation means when it says "Babylon".
                              There is spiritual Babylon and there is physical Babylon.

                              From The Footsteps of the Messiah by Arnold Fruchtenbaum:

                              In verse 15, John interprets the meaning of the many waters over which the great harlot rules, saying it refers to the world population. Again, in prostituting the religion, the harlot moved from serving to ruling, and rules the world population for the first half of the Tribulation.

                              Verses 16-17 go on to describe the destruction of Mystery Babylon. The world religious system of the first half of the Tribulation will be destroyed in the middle of the Tribulation by the Antichrist and his allied kings (v. 16). Unknowingly, they carry out God's will in the matter (v. 17).

                              Finally, in verse 18, it is stated that the headquarters of Mystery Babylon will be the city of Babylon. Chapter 18 then details the destruction of the city itself as part of the Campaign of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation.

                              Scripture is clear that physical Babylon is in the land of the Chaldeans:

                              Jer 50:24 I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD.
                              Jer 50:25 The LORD hath opened his armory, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.
                              Where is the "land of the Chaldeans"?

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Dynasty


                              The Medes (the modern day Kurds) will play a role in the destruction of physical Babylon:

                              Isaiah 13:17-22

                              Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

                              Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

                              And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

                              It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

                              But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

                              And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.
                              Jeremiah 51:11-12

                              Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

                              Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the LORD hath both devised and done that which he spoke against the inhabitants of Babylon.
                              More information about the Medes, the modern day Kurds, can be found here:
                              http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...urdprofile.htm



                              And what of spiritual Babylon?

                              Just the tip of the iceberg, but consider the following:

                              Keeping Christianity alive in Iraq
                              11-20-07
                              http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/me...aq.christians/

                              "Peace for all believers," the congregation at the Sacred Heart church in Eastern Baghdad sings, as the Patriarch, Emmanuel III Delly, holds a heavy cross in his hands, his eyes closed.

                              He seems focused on the hard work that lies ahead.

                              Pope Benedict XVI recently appointed the Patriarch of the Chaldean Church for Babylon, an ancient denomination with roots in the age of Jesus Christ, a cardinal.

                              Emmanuel III is the first Iraqi to be elevated to that status and will receive his ordination on November 24 in Rome.

                              That means somewhere down the line, Emmanuel III could become Pope.

                              More . . .
                              Churches decry bishop’s murder
                              5-2-08
                              http://www.anglicanjournal.com/issue...ishops-murder/

                              Until the US-led military action in 2003, Christians accounted for roughly 3 per cent of Iraq’s mainly Muslim population, or about 700 000 people. Approximately 70 per cent of them belong to the Chaldean church, which follows the ancient Chaldean rite but is in union with the Roman Catholic Church.

                              Chaldean is a form of Aramaic, spoken at the time of Jesus. The Chaldeans converted to Christianity in the first century A.D., and the Chaldean branch of Christianity has been in Iraq since then.

                              More . . .

                              Originally posted by AlwaysWatching
                              And upon her forehead was a name written,
                              MYSTERY,
                              BABYLON THE GREAT,
                              THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

                              Definition of Mystery: a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand
                              We can understand this.

                              Who is the mother of harlots and abominations?

                              The whore's full name is:

                              MYSTERY, (pause)
                              BABYLON THE GREAT, (pause)
                              THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

                              Think of it like this:

                              Her first name is MYSTERY.

                              Her second name is BABYLON THE GREAT.

                              BABYLON THE GREAT is a qualifier. It tells you a bit more about MYSTERY.
                              It's like saying, "the blue sky" where "blue" modifies "sky". It tells us a little
                              more about her.

                              Her third name is THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
                              This tells us much, much more about her. This tells us that she isn't an offspring
                              of harlots and abominations, false religious systems, etc., of the earth.

                              She is the mother of those things.

                              America, Jerusalem, Dubai . . . none are the mother of those things.

                              Wickedness existed long before they showed up.

                              Where was wickedness originally scattered across the nations from?

                              Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
                              Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
                              Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.
                              Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
                              Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
                              Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
                              Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
                              Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
                              Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.


                              Originally posted by JefferyDollars View Post
                              Hmmm everyone He has an interesting point. A world center for commerce in the 21st century need not resemble NYC or Chicago with a sprawling urban landscape. We have the technology today (just look at Wallstreet) that if the NWO desired to for symbolic reasons and a gumption from Satan to setup head quarters in Babylon and run all the worlds finances and commerce they could. I forgot that today we are an electronic and internet based society no longer do we need a series of large buildings in order to run the world. Babylon can still be the center of world commerce without looking like Dubai I wonder why ive never seen it like this before
                              Good points.


                              For those who think that there are many years to go before Babylon can become
                              the world center of government and finances . . . in a post rapture world, Saddam's
                              palace in Babylon or that new super embassy could easily house both.

                              As a result of advanced technology, either could easily become a stronghold for a
                              world dictator, a world government and the hub of international finances.

                              All cuddled up in the arms of the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth.

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                              • #45
                                could mystery babylon be the whole earth? with a head quarters somewhere, say iraq?

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