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The Two Witnesses: Moses & Elijah? {Merged}

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mensh View Post
    gratefulberean You won't believe this, but I am right now heading to a conference to hear Dr. Fruchtenbaum speak. I will ask him for more details concerning Elijah, because this was also "new" information to me as well.

    One thing that Fruchtenbaum emphasizes is that the rapture does not start the tribulation, the covenant between the AC and Israel is what starts the 7 year tribulation. There may be a span of time (days, weeks, months, years) between the rapture of the church and the beginning of the tribulation. He also says the "great tribulation" is the same as the "tribulation" which is a period of 7 years. It is also referred to as "Jacob's Trouble" and about 15+ other names.
    Wow! Very cool...

    I anxiously await your report!

    In the meantime, I'll live vicariously thru you!

    Thanks for clarifying the great trib as one of the same as the tribulation.
    sigpicEphesians 2:8-9

    8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

    Comment


    • #47
      There is a passage in the Bible (can't remember where, sorry) which has the Lord declaring (and I'm obviously paraphrasing here), "Behold, I will send you Elijah before that day." I'm inclined to think that Elijah will be one of the Two Witnesses, but it does not necessarily follow that he will use the name Elijah or even refer to himself as Elijah returned. He could equally be anonymous, but his message to those still on Earth during the Tribulation is what will be of the greatest importance: "Repent while you still have time!"

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mensh View Post
        gratefulberean You won't believe this, but I am right now heading to a conference to hear Dr. Fruchtenbaum speak. I will ask him for more details concerning Elijah, because this was also "new" information to me as well.

        One thing that Fruchtenbaum emphasizes is that the rapture does not start the tribulation, the covenant between the AC and Israel is what starts the 7 year tribulation. There may be a span of time (days, weeks, months, years) between the rapture of the church and the beginning of the tribulation. He also says the "great tribulation" is the same as the "tribulation" which is a period of 7 years. It is also referred to as "Jacob's Trouble" and about 15+ other names.

        Mensh,

        The tribulation has two parts. The first part is seal/trumpet judgements, time of repentance, and the work of the tribulation saints will be the greatest. Once the abomination of desolation occurs, and after the witnesses are killed and gathered to heaven, then the last 3 1/2 years known as the Great Tribulation will commence. During the great Tribulation, The Lord has reserved his greatest and most powerful judgements (the vials) for the lost and on top of this, The Lord confines the devil to the earth completely and he will be at the absolute peak hatred for mankind at this point, because he knows his time is extremely short at this point.


        Supporting verses:

        Beginning of the Great Trib: Matthew 24:15-21

        Devil's confinement to earth: Revelation 12:9-12

        There's more, I know! I have to get back to work.


        PS: Check out this article by Jack Kelly

        http://www.raptureready.com/featured/kelley/jack25.html
        Last edited by Love4JC; August 26th, 2008, 01:27 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by gratefulberean View Post
          This is new to me, and I would love to hear your informed insights and thoughts on this...
          Fruchtenbaum indicates he'll come before the trib starts, so this would be separate from the two witnesses, whom Fruchtenbaum says will likely be two Jewish prophets whom God will raise up during the Tribulation itself.

          Given that Elijah will come and minister to Jewish families prior to the tribulation, that would almost rule him out as being one of the "two witnesses". Or he'll be a very busy fella.

          Fruchtenbaum also says that there is nothing left that needs to happen before the rapture occurs. That said, Elijah could return before or after the rapture.
          Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

          Comment


          • #50
            I'm back!

            Malachi 4:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)
            New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            5"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

            6"He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse."
            I just came from a session with Dr. Fruchtenbaum. I was mistaken about Elijah being a "Type" like John the Baptist. In context, this verse if referring to Elijah himself that will return. See also Matthew 17:9-13 where is says Elijah indeed comes and shall restore all things (future tense).

            Elijah will be in a glorified body (as seen in the transfiguration) so he will not be subject to death, which precludes him from being one of the Two Prophets that will be killed with their bodies being left in the street for 3 1/2 days before being resurrected. Also, he has been in heaven - where no man in their physical state can enter, so he has been translated - which involves corruption putting on incorruption and mortality putting on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:50-58).

            The Transfiguration Luke 12:28-31
            28Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.

            29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.

            30And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

            31who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

            Originally posted by Love4JC
            Mensh,

            The tribulation has two parts. The first part is seal/trumpet judgements, time of repentance, and the work of the tribulation saints will be the greatest. Once the abomination of desolation occurs, and after the witnesses are killed and gathered to heaven, then the last 3 1/2 years known as the Great Tribulation will commence. During the great Tribulation, The Lord has reserved his greatest and most powerful judgements (the vials) for the lost and on top of this, The Lord confines the devil to the earth completely and he will be at the absolute peak hatred for mankind at this point, because he knows his time is extremely short at this point.


            Supporting verses:

            Beginning of the Great Trib: Matthew 24:15-21

            Devil's confinement to earth: Revelation 12:9-12

            There's more, I know! I have to get back to work.
            I certainly agree there are two halves of the tribulation as does Dr. Fruchtenbaum. After further review I agree that Matthew 24:21 does refer to the 2nd half as the "great tribulation" and further study of his book does not clearly indicate if he's suggesting the whole 7 year period - it's a little confusing because of some headings.

            There are 2 other scripture references for the "great tribulation" - Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14 as well. These 2 references are less clear that it is referring to only the 2nd half of the tribulation, though. The first says that the apostate Laodicean church will go through the great tribulation (will not be raptured).

            The second is referring to the tribulation saints that are coming out of the great tribulation. Now in the first half - tribulation saints especially will be persecuted by the apostate one-world church and in the 2nd half believers that refuse the mark and Jews will be persecuted by the AC who will be trying to annihilate them - especially the Messianic Jews that flee Jerusalem at the abomination of desolation.

            No matter the term, I do believe the 2nd half of the tribulation will be worse: The AC will be instituting the mark. Satan will know his time is short. Plus the wrath of God will be displayed as never before.
            Last edited by Trust&Obey; August 26th, 2008, 05:43 PM. Reason: clarification
            John 14:6
            Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

            Comment


            • #51
              BTW here's a list of names that refer to the tribulation (or if someone wants to be very literal times in the tribulation).
              The Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jeremiah 30:7
              The Seventieth Week of Daniel - Daniel 9:27
              Jehovah's Strange Work - Isaiah 28:21
              Jehovah's Strange act - Isaiah 28:21
              The Day of Israel's Calamity - Deuteronomy 32:35; Obadiah 12-14
              The Tribulation - Deuteronomy 4:30
              The Indignation - Isaiah 26:20; Daniel 11:36
              The Overflowing Scourge - Isaiah 28:15, 18
              The Day of Vengeance - Isaiah 34:8; Isaiah 35:4; Isaiah 61:2
              The Year of Recompense - Isaiah 34:8
              The Time of Trouble - Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15
              The Day of Wrath - Zephaniah 1:15
              The Day of Distress - Zephaniah 1:15
              The Day of Wasteness - Zephaniah 1:15
              The Day of Desolation - Zephaniah 1:15
              plus many more in the OT

              in the NT:
              The Day of the Lord - 1 Thessalonians 5:2
              The Wrath of God - Revelation 15:1; Revelation 7; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 19; Revelation 16:1
              The Hour of Trial - Revelation 3:10
              The Great Day of the Wrath of the Lamb of God - Revelation 6:16-17
              The Wrath to Come - 1 Thessalonians 1:10
              The Wrath - 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 11:18
              The Great Tribulation - Matthew 24:21; Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14
              The Tribulation - Matthew 24:29
              The Hour of Judgement - Revelation 14:7
              John 14:6
              Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Love4JC View Post
                I think there is a small misunderstanding here . Elijah will come after we are gone, during the "mild" portion of the Tribulation...the first 3 1/2 years and a short time after the peace agreement is confirmed by AC. They will witness to the remaining church of Laodicean's (the ones who weren't hot or cold, but lukewarm and didn't repent), the remaining Jews on the earth, and the whole world. The other witness is believed to be Moses because he was the other great Jewish prophet and the Bible does not mention his physical death either. Hope this helps!
                Jud 1:9
                Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

                I believe Moses did die, but for whatever reason Michael and Satan disputed about what to do with his body.......My take on that is God is not done using Moses yet....

                Comment


                • #53
                  It is possible that Elijah will be one of the two witness. I used to think so, and the other well I always thought Enoch or Moses.

                  However, the arguments about no one living could see God and live is true. The two witnesses could be two people in the "spirit of Elijah" as Jesus said that John the Baptist was. The Bible has also said that it is appointed unto a man once to die and after that the judgment. It seems hard to believe that a human glorified body will need to come back to earth to die again. Please note, this is a new opinion of mine and is NOT TO BE TAKEN AS SCRIPTURE.
                  BelovedChild

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                  • #54
                    I was re-reading Revelation today and came across a passage I had not let sink in before. This is right after the angel with the "little book" gives it to John and tells him to eat it up, and it will be sweet in his mouth , but bitter in his belly. Chapter 10, verse 11:
                    "And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues and kings."
                    When would John have done this? Since he wrote Revelation from his exile in Patmos, and didn't he die after that? Could he be one of the two witnesses?
                    Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu melech haolam --Blessed are you O Lord our God, King of the universe

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mensh View Post
                      I'm back!



                      I just came from a session with Dr. Fruchtenbaum. I was mistaken about Elijah being a "Type" like John the Baptist. In context, this verse if referring to Elijah himself that will return. See also Matthew 17:9-13 where is says Elijah indeed comes and shall restore all things (future tense).

                      Elijah will be in a glorified body (as seen in the transfiguration) so he will not be subject to death, which precludes him from being one of the Two Prophets that will be killed with their bodies being left in the street for 3 1/2 days before being resurrected. Also, he has been in heaven - where no man in their physical state can enter, so he has been translated - which involves corruption putting on incorruption and mortality putting on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:50-58).
                      Very interesting, thanks Mensh!
                      sigpicEphesians 2:8-9

                      8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mensh View Post
                        gratefulberean
                        One thing that Fruchtenbaum emphasizes is that the rapture does not start the tribulation, the covenant between the AC and Israel is what starts the 7 year tribulation.
                        My turn! Hate to be a nit picker but something tells me this is going to be hugely important for those here at the time. So.....am going to pick a nit.

                        The covenant may not be the kick-off event. In fact, its possible the covenant may already be signed. I believe a literal reading says its the "confirming" of the covenant, or enforcing or putting in practice.

                        So, this...to me..., means the individual that actually puts it in practice or enforces it on the involved parties. It could be the person that actually drafts it and signs it, or it could refer to someone else entirely.

                        Give another "look-see" and see if you agree.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Love4JC View Post
                          I think there is a small misunderstanding here . Elijah will come after we are gone, during the "mild" portion of the Tribulation...the first 3 1/2 years and a short time after the peace agreement is confirmed by AC. They will witness to the remaining church of Laodicean's (the ones who weren't hot or cold, but lukewarm and didn't repent), the remaining Jews on the earth, and the whole world. The other witness is believed to be Moses because he was the other great Jewish prophet and the Bible does not mention his physical death either. Hope this helps!
                          I agree with this, however, I don't believe that Elijah will be on the Earth in the period of time before the G.T. Elijah was taken to Heaven, and as Jesus told us, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Elijah must have a glorified body, therefore, he cannot be killed by the A/C. However, Moses is possible. I'm not sure who God will send as the two witnesses, but it can't be Enoch, Elijah, or anyone who was taken to Heaven without experiencing death. Whose to say it's not Zephaniah or Isaiah?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Hello Caver
                            Welcome your input. I don't see it as nit-picking - I'm certainly a student of the Word and quite willing to let scripture correct my thinking - not the other way around.

                            There is one comment I can make about Daniel 9:27 where the covenant is referred to as a "firm covenant" (NAS) or "confirm the covenant" (KJV) that is established between the AC and Israel. The Hebrew word for "firm" can be interpreted as you have done or that it is a "strong" covenant, not necessarily to renew an existing covenant, but to make an original one that contains strong guarantees. The Hebrew word for "confirm" is defined as "to prevail, have strength or be mighty".

                            Another thing about the covenant can be found in Daniel 9:25a which says this decree (or covenant) will concern restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem. Due to the subject of the covenant, it seems likely that it will be a new covenant or certainly a MUCH stronger covenant that's purpose is to rebuild Jerusalem. My opinion is that this covenant will include issues concerning the Temple as well.

                            We also know the covenant itself will be for 7 years.

                            Back to the subject of Elijah and the two witnesses. I challenge anyone (in a friendly way!) to show me a scripture that clearly identifies Elijah as one of the two witnesses. I believe that the Bible is silent on this subject. There is much speculation on Elijah and Enoch because they did not die physically. Again there is speculation on Elijah and Moses because they were at the transfiguration of Jesus (and we don't know where Moses' bones are, except that Michael took them somewhere) and also because the miracles of the Two Witnesses are the same as these two individual's. However, because it is speculation rather than scripture, I think it is best not to focus on the "who". In a previous post, I noted that both Elijah and Moses are now in their glorified bodies.

                            Now in the case of Malachi 4:5-6, it clearly states that Elijah will come back and that it will be "before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD."

                            Got to go to work. Have a good day!
                            John 14:6
                            Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mensh View Post
                              Hello Caver
                              Welcome your input. I don't see it as nit-picking - I'm certainly a student of the Word and quite willing to let scripture correct my thinking - not the other way around.

                              There is one comment I can make about Daniel 9:27 where the covenant is referred to as a "firm covenant" (NAS) or "confirm the covenant" (KJV) that is established between the AC and Israel. The Hebrew word for "firm" can be interpreted as you have done or that it is a "strong" covenant, not necessarily to renew an existing covenant, but to make an original one that contains strong guarantees. The Hebrew word for "confirm" is defined as "to prevail, have strength or be mighty".

                              Another thing about the covenant can be found in Daniel 9:25a which says this decree (or covenant) will concern restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem. Due to the subject of the covenant, it seems likely that it will be a new covenant or certainly a MUCH stronger covenant that's purpose is to rebuild Jerusalem. My opinion is that this covenant will include issues concerning the Temple as well.

                              We also know the covenant itself will be for 7 years.

                              Back to the subject of Elijah and the two witnesses. I challenge anyone (in a friendly way!) to show me a scripture that clearly identifies Elijah as one of the two witnesses. I believe that the Bible is silent on this subject. There is much speculation on Elijah and Enoch because they did not die physically. Again there is speculation on Elijah and Moses because they were at the transfiguration of Jesus (and we don't know where Moses' bones are, except that Michael took them somewhere) and also because the miracles of the Two Witnesses are the same as these two individual's. However, because it is speculation rather than scripture, I think it is best not to focus on the "who". In a previous post, I noted that both Elijah and Moses are now in their glorified bodies.

                              Now in the case of Malachi 4:5-6, it clearly states that Elijah will come back and that it will be "before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD."

                              Got to go to work. Have a good day!
                              Excellent post, I agree!
                              sigpicEphesians 2:8-9

                              8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                or is it possible that the Raptured Church is Elijah in this time. Those who prepare the way for Yeshua and proclaim His coming could certainly be said to be acting "in the Spirit of Elijah" and eventually be "caught up" just as the great prophet was...? Just as the Beast is not one, but many; a collective group. so may be the Elijah of The Second Coming?

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