Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Meshech and Tubal, how sure can we be it is really Russia?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Meshech and Tubal, how sure can we be it is really Russia?

    I am not trying to start any controversy or confusion, I simply want to find out this:
    who determined that Meshech and Tubal is actually Russia and what did they use to back up their belief with?
    I had a shock when I watched a video where a preacher showed a map explaining that Meshech and Tubal was actually in Turkey, and I came upon this as well:

    {Mod Snip} Rule 14 {Mod Snip}

    So, how sure can we really be that what we have come to believe is actually correct?
    TIA!
    Last edited by Steve53; June 23rd, 2011, 10:50 AM. Reason: Rule 14
    “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
    Hebrews 12:5,6,7

  • #2
    Meshech and Tubal are Turkey. Russia has always been Magog or in some versions of the Bible its Rosh.


    {Mod Snip} Rule 14 {Mod Snip}

    Magog, Rosh = Russia and the former Soviet republics
    Persia = Iran
    Cush = Sudan, Ethiopia, and Possibly Eritrea
    Put = Libya, Algeria, and Tunisa
    Gomer, Meshech, and Tubal = Turkey (and possibly Germany and Austria)
    Beth-togarmah = Turkey, Armenia, Turkish-speaking people of Asia Minor & Central Asia
    Last edited by Steve53; June 23rd, 2011, 10:51 AM. Reason: Rule 14
    Joh 14:6 λεγει αυτω ο ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου

    Joh 14:6 dicit ei Iesus ego sum via et veritas et vita nemo venit ad Patrem nisi per me

    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh, oops maybe it's me who's got it wrong

      I do think though that I heard someone teach that Meshech is Moscow and Tubal -Tbilisi (Georgia).
      “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
      Hebrews 12:5,6,7

      Comment


      • #4
        Whenever Jack Van Impe brings up Gog / Magog, he always says that those names are all cities identified in Russia. So maybe that's where you heard it from.
        "We have no defenses against space junk, people!" - Take me away!

        *Ask me about my testimony!*

        Comment


        • #5
          http://www.gotquestions.org/Gog-Magog.html

          Question: "What are Gog and Magog?"

          Answer:
          Historically speaking, Magog was a grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:2). The descendants of Magog settled to the far north of Israel, likely in Europe and northern Asia (Ezekiel 38:2). Magog seems to be used to refer to "northern barbarians" in general, but likely also has a connection to Magog the person. The people of Magog are described as skilled warriors (Ezekiel 38:15; 39:3-9).

          Gog and Magog are referred to in Ezekiel 38-39 and in Revelation 20:7-8. While these two instances carry the same names, a close study of Scripture clearly demonstrates they do not refer to the same people and events. In Ezekiel’s prophecy, Gog will be the leader of a great army that attacks the land of Israel. Gog is described as “of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal” (Ezekiel 38:2-3). Ezekiel's battle of Gog and Magog occurs in the tribulation period, more specifically in the first 3 1/2 years. The strongest evidence for this view is that the attack will come when Israel is at peace (Ezekiel 38:8, 11). The description from Ezekiel is that of a nation that has security and has laid down its defenses. Israel is definitely not at peace now, and it is inconceivable that the nation would lay down its defenses apart from some major event. When Israel's covenant with the Beast/Antichrist is in effect at the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week (also known as the 7-year tribulation, Daniel 9:27a), Israel will be at peace. Possibly the battle will occur just before the midpoint of the seven-year period. According to Ezekiel, Gog will be defeated by God Himself on the mountains of Israel. The slaughter will be so great it will take seven months to bury all of the dead (Ezekiel 39:11-12).

          Gog and Magog are mentioned again in Revelation is found in 20:7-8. The duplicated use of the names Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8-9 is to show that these people demonstrate the same rebellion against God and antagonism toward God as those in Ezekiel 38-39. It is similar to someone today calling a person "the devil" because he or she is sinful and evil. We know that person is not really Satan, but because that person shares similar characteristics, he or she might be referred to as "the devil."

          The book of Revelation uses Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog to portray a final end-times attack on the nation of Israel (Revelation 20:8-9). The result of this battle is that all are destroyed, and Satan will find his final place in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

          It is important to recognize that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is quite different from the one in Revelation 20:7-8. Below are some of the more obvious reasons why these refer to different people and battles.

          1. In the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth (Ezekiel 38:6, 15; 39:2). The battle in Revelation 20:7-9 will involve all nations, so armies will come from all directions, not just from the north.

          2. There is no mention of Satan in the context of Ezekiel 38-39. In Revelation 20:7 the context clearly places the battle at the end of the millennium with Satan as the primary character.

          3. Ezekiel 39:11-12 states that the dead will be buried for seven months. There would be no need to bury the dead if the battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is the one described in Revelation 20:8-9, for immediately following Revelation 20:8-9 is the Great White Throne judgment (20:11-15) and then the current or present heaven and earth are destroyed, replaced by a new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1). There obviously will be a need to bury the dead if the battle takes place in the early part of the tribulation, for the land of Israel will be occupied for another 1,000 years, the length of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

          4. The battle in Ezekiel 38-39 is used by God to bring Israel back to Him (Ezekiel 39:21-29). In Revelation 20, Israel has been faithful to God for 1,000 years (the millennial kingdom). Those in Revelation 20:7-10 who are rebellious are destroyed without any more opportunity for repentance.
          sigpic
          Come soon Lord Jesus - Take us Safely Home

          John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

          Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.


          Comment


          • #6
            No, Miggy I don't really watch or read Jack Impe. Hmm.. I will probably stumble upon that again somewhere ...sooner or later... and then I will find out, I guess.
            “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
            Hebrews 12:5,6,7

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, while I was searching through familiar suspects online I found this {Mod Snip} Rule 14 {Mod Snip}

              Mod edit - No Joel Richardson or Walid Shoebat (who shares similar views) on the board please.

              Last edited by Steve53; June 23rd, 2011, 11:41 AM. Reason: Rule 14
              “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children.
              Hebrews 12:5,6,7

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by lightseeker* View Post
                I am not trying to start any controversy or confusion, I simply want to find out this:
                who determined that Meshech and Tubal is actually Russia and what did they use to back up their belief with?
                I had a shock when I watched a video where a preacher showed a map explaining that Meshech and Tubal was actually in Turkey, and I came upon this as well:

                {Mod Snip} Rule 14 {Mod Snip}

                So, how sure can we really be that what we have come to believe is actually correct?
                TIA!

                Arnold Fruchtenbaum notes in his work that some connect Tubal and Meschech back to Tobolsk and Moscow, though he gives no references for this. Mark Hitchcock though notes the following in his articie:

                "Meshech and Tubal are normally mentioned together in Scripture. In his notes in The Scofield Study Bible at Ezek 38:2, C. I. Scofield identified Meshech and Tubal as the Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk. Scofield wrote, "That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed up by Russia, all agree. . . . The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification."

                While the names do sound alike, this is not a proper method of identification. Meshech and Tubal are mentioned two other times in Ezekiel. In Ezek 27:13 they are mentioned as trading partners with ancient Tyre. In Ezek 32:26 their recent defeat is recorded. It is highly unlikely that ancient Tyre (modern Lebanon) was trading with Moscow and the Siberian city of Tobolsk. The preferred identification is that Meshech and Tubal are the ancient Moschoi and Tibarenoi in Greek writings or Tabal and Musku in Assyrian inscriptions. The ancient locations are in modern Turkey."


                Also see page 13 of this: http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuil...es/ez38-39.pdf

                Furthermore, see page 35-37 of the following link: http://books.google.com/books?id=Svt...page&q&f=false

                Comment


                • #9
                  It would be very far fetched to say the Meshech of Ezekiel 27:13 was Moscow when they traded with Tyre. Some people claim that Meshech migrated. If that is the case how would you know where everybody went in the last 2500 years or so?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There is only one nation to the uttermost north of Israel that actually has the weapons capability to destroy her.

                    Further, Russia has been involved or supplied weapons to most of Israel's enemies since 1948.

                    Much of what the IAF went up against were MiG's and Sukhoi's

                    Egypt now has a couple hundred US F-16's and M-1 Abrahms tanks. And some of our most powerful shells for that tank.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by james46888 View Post
                      Arnold Fruchtenbaum notes in his work that some connect Tubal and Meschech back to Tobolsk and Moscow, though he gives no references for this. Mark Hitchcock though notes the following in his articie:

                      "Meshech and Tubal are normally mentioned together in Scripture. In his notes in The Scofield Study Bible at Ezek 38:2, C. I. Scofield identified Meshech and Tubal as the Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk. Scofield wrote, "That the primary reference is to the northern (European) powers, headed up by Russia, all agree. . . . The reference to Meshech and Tubal (Moscow and Tobolsk) is a clear mark of identification."

                      While the names do sound alike, this is not a proper method of identification. Meshech and Tubal are mentioned two other times in Ezekiel. In Ezek 27:13 they are mentioned as trading partners with ancient Tyre. In Ezek 32:26 their recent defeat is recorded. It is highly unlikely that ancient Tyre (modern Lebanon) was trading with Moscow and the Siberian city of Tobolsk. The preferred identification is that Meshech and Tubal are the ancient Moschoi and Tibarenoi in Greek writings or Tabal and Musku in Assyrian inscriptions. The ancient locations are in modern Turkey."


                      Also see page 13 of this: http://www.versebyverse.com/sitebuil...es/ez38-39.pdf

                      Furthermore, see page 35-37 of the following link: http://books.google.com/books?id=Svt...page&q&f=false
                      Yes, I've seen articles that show that areas of Moscow are still called Meshech and that Tubal was indeed Tobolosk (sp?). Turkey is named elsewhere in Ezekiel 38-39. I don't think God needs to repeat Turkey 4-5 times by different names. I think Meshech and Tubal refer to Russia along with Rosh. JMHO.

                      But in the end, which ever way you slice it, Turkey and Russia are both going to be in Ezekiel 38-39. That's a Bible fact.
                      Rapture Forums Ministries - Rapture Forums

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chris View Post
                        Yes, I've seen articles that show that areas of Moscow are still called Meshech and that Tubal was indeed Tobolosk (sp?). Turkey is named elsewhere in Ezekiel 38-39. I don't think God needs to repeat Turkey 4-5 times by different names. I think Meshech and Tubal refer to Russia along with Rosh. JMHO.

                        But in the end, which ever way you slice it, Turkey and Russia are both going to be in Ezekiel 38-39. That's a Bible fact.
                        plus 1
                        Tall Timbers, Imperfect but forgiven

                        3 trees

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rapture444 View Post
                          There is only one nation to the uttermost north of Israel that actually has the weapons capability to destroy her.

                          Further, Russia has been involved or supplied weapons to most of Israel's enemies since 1948.

                          Much of what the IAF went up against were MiG's and Sukhoi's

                          Egypt now has a couple hundred US F-16's and M-1 Abrahms tanks. And some of our most powerful shells for that tank.
                          Does the Bible say Gog is from the uttermost north or just the north parts or north quarters. Some translations say uttermost but is that what the Hebrew says?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cheymat View Post
                            Meshech and Tubal are Turkey. Russia has always been Magog or in some versions of the Bible its Rosh.


                            {Mod Snip} Rule 14 {Mod Snip}

                            Magog, Rosh = Russia and the former Soviet republics
                            Persia = Iran
                            Cush = Sudan, Ethiopia, and Possibly Eritrea
                            Put = Libya, Algeria, and Tunisa
                            Gomer, Meshech, and Tubal = Turkey (and possibly Germany and Austria)
                            Beth-togarmah = Turkey, Armenia, Turkish-speaking people of Asia Minor & Central Asia
                            I do not believe Cush is Ethiopia. This is not consistent with Genesis 2:10-14, Genesis 10:6-20, Numbers 12:1-3, Judges 3:8, Psalm 87:4 or Ezekiel 29:8-10. It does reflect the condition today, either.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheBoat View Post
                              Does the Bible say Gog is from the uttermost north or just the north parts or north quarters. Some translations say uttermost but is that what the Hebrew says?

                              http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/vie...-38-39-part-10

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X