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Pope says Mother Teresa felt "God's silence"

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  • #31
    nope

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    • #32
      I apologize to you then. I thought you were referring to priests (who are titled Father) forgiving sins through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

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      • #33
        John 20:23 Literally says this: Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose dins you do not forgive have not been forgiven"

        God does not forgive peoples sins because we do do, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Instead, those who are ministering the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgving depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

        God does not leave something like retaining or not retaining sins to a fallen world. To people in need of a savior. He left that job for his Son.

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        • #34
          Jesus delegated the authority to his Apostles who were his representatives on Earth. This does not diminish Christ's power, it glorifies it. Does it take away from God's power that it was Moses who led the Hebrews out of Egypt? Absolutely not, it glorified God because Moses was doing God's will. The Apostles (and their successors) are God's representatives on Earth and they glorify God by forgiving people's sins in His name.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by House of Light View Post
            God does not forgive peoples sins because we do do, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Instead, those who are ministering the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgving depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.
            Exactly. When an individual preaches the Gospel to those who have never heard it, you lock everyone who hears the Truth into one of two situations. Once the Truth is heard, the individual can either accept the Truth, or reject it. By the Apostles preaching the Gospel to new hearers they are forgiving and retaining by the message they share, depending on the response of the individual.

            Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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            • #36
              Originally posted by CatholicConvert View Post
              The Apostles (and their successors) are God's representatives on Earth and they glorify God by forgiving people's sins in His name.

              No.....God forgive's peoples sins. There is no mediator between a Christian and Christ. The temple curtain was torn in two. We have the right to go to him directly.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by CatholicConvert View Post
                Greetings Abba'sLilGirl!

                Thanks for your kind words. I think your assessment is inaccurate because you don't address the second part of the statement that says about them retaining sins. Jesus preached unconditional forgiveness consistently in his minstry, example in the Lords Prayer. He would not have told the Apostles that they dont have to forgive people if they feel like it. I also don't think it makes sense if you think about. Jesus telling the Apostles that the people they don't forgive won't be forgiven? Let me know what you think.

                In Peace
                Respectfully, I don't think the Lord's application was that the Apostles "didn't have to forgive people if they didn't feel like it." I think the principle of forgiveness - or the law of Christ that governs our lives - was given in conjunction with the receiving of the Holy Spirit so that they would understand His power of forgiveness.

                I also don't think that Jesus is implying that He won't forgive the sins of those whom the Apostles don't forgive. To me, that would create a contradiction with the whole of Scripture. . . . particularly these passages (Matt. 26:28; Acts. 2:38; Acts 10:43; Eph. 1:17; Col. 1:14) Again, I think the implication here is to help them - and us - understand that there are temporal consequences to sin eventhough the eternal debt has been paid by Christ. If we don't forgive others, then it is we who carry the greater sin.

                Sin has to be dealt with on both an eternal and temporal plane. God has dealt with it through Christ from an eternal perspective, yet we must decide what we will do with it in these earthen vessels. Do we forgive - or "let it go" - or do we carry bitterness, resentment and hate around with us?

                I'd be curious as to how the original Greek text is defined. Maybe a Greek scholar will pop in on this discussion.

                Also, I find this verse interesting . . . Matt. 6:14 14 - For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

                It seems to me that forgiveness is the means by which reconcilliation can begin . . . whether that be between God and man or man and each other. Christ has provided the Way to be reconcilled with God, however, this passage seems to suggest that there is a condition to His reconcilliation that goes beyond the eternal implications provided to us through Christ.

                Grace and Peace to you.

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                • #38
                  Abba'sLilGirl has made 2 VERY good posts on this! Thanks.

                  Forgiveness of our sins upon our repentance to Jesus who shed His blood in our place on the cross gives us eternal life as we are seen clean in His site.

                  Forgiveness of a friend/brother on earth, does NOT bring eterna life. No man has done what the one and only Son of God, Savior, Jesus.. GOD, on the cross for us.

                  As stated forgiving a friend is earthly and reconciling the relationship. 'nothing to do with eternity.

                  Jesus' forgiveness to the REPENTANT SINNER reconciles us to Himself/God and brings eternal life.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sing4Him View Post
                    Abba'sLilGirl has made 2 VERY good posts on this! Thanks.

                    Forgiveness of our sins upon our repentance to Jesus who shed His blood in our place on the cross gives us eternal life as we are seen clean in His site.

                    Forgiveness of a friend/brother on earth, does NOT bring eterna life. No man has done what the one and only Son of God, Savior, Jesus.. GOD, on the cross for us.

                    As stated forgiving a friend is earthly and reconciling the relationship. 'nothing to do with eternity.

                    Jesus' forgiveness to the REPENTANT SINNER reconciles us to Himself/God and brings eternal life.
                    Thanks for the Love.

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                    • #40
                      I like the passage you cite in Matthew. Echoes the one statement of the Lord's Prayer perfectly. However it is not to be taken in the same context as the passage from John I listed. The Matthew passage is discussing people forgiving people who wronged them in order to be forgiven by God. Great teaching and is much easier said that done I think we all would agree! The key to the John passage is "Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:19-23

                      Jesus sent the apostles to continue Jesus's ministry. This includes everything Jesus's ministry entailed. Preaching the Word, teaching, healing, casting out demons, and especially forgiving sins since Jesus specifically mentioned it. When you confess your sins to a priest or bishop, your not seeking their forgiveness. You are seeking God's forgiveness.

                      "16Therefore, (A)confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be (B)healed (C)The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." James

                      The Catechism of the Catholic Church says Only God forgives sin

                      1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

                      1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Abba'sLil'Girl View Post
                        I also don't think that Jesus is implying that He won't forgive the sins of those whom the Apostles don't forgive. To me, that would create a contradiction with the whole of Scripture. . . . particularly these passages (Matt. 26:28; Acts. 2:38; Acts 10:43; Eph. 1:17; Col. 1:14)
                        Excellent here, scripture does not contradict itself!

                        Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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                        • #42
                          Of course scripture does not contradict itself my friend. It is infallible. It is truth. Truth cannot contradict truth.

                          Those passages say that forgiveness of sins comes through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross. No disagreement here. However, your not addressing my claim that he gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by CatholicConvert View Post
                            Of course scripture does not contradict itself my friend. It is infallible. It is truth. Truth cannot contradict truth.

                            Those passages say that forgiveness of sins comes through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the cross. No disagreement here. However, your not addressing my claim that he gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name.
                            I, and others, have already answered this.

                            Look at it through sheer logic, if the RC position is correct, it would result in the contradiction of scripture, hence the Roman interpretation is incorrect.

                            Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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                            • #44
                              Here is a cut and paste from this thread: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=10846 entitled: Confession and John 20:21-23

                              So here's my POV on why the gospel is the key. Being saved must carry along with it, forgiveness, and even greater; remission of sin. By definition. If I'm truly saved, I must be forgiven. Why? We both know God doesn't abide sin. I must be washed of my sin, and that includes forgiveness of those sins. How am I washed of sin? By Christ's sacrifice. How do I claim that sacrifice as my washing?

                              Romans 10:9
                              That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

                              That's all it takes to be saved. Again, to be saved we must be forgiven, so somewhere in there, my sins were forgiven me, by my faith in Jesus' Faith and sacrifice. If that is what it takes to be saved, how can "I" save another? I spread the gospel. As Paul said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

                              "We" are actually forgiving sin, saving people, by the gospel. The apostles were going into places that had never heard the word of the Lord. What was the "bare bones" message preached?

                              You're sinners in need of salvation. You are all in sin. Christ came and died for your sin, so that you may be saved. If you accept Christ, if you come to have faith, you will be saved, your sins forgiven you. If you don't come to Christ, you'll get no forgiveness, you retain your sin.

                              I've just locked them in. I've preached Christ, and unlocked forgiveness for them, and I've basically locked in the unbelievers' sins, by preaching Christ. John 8:24 says Christ preached: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. We go preach the same thing.

                              The retaining of sins is based on whether or not one believes that Christ is who He said He is. By us preaching the gospel, which is the good news of Christ, we forgive/retain sin the same way.

                              AND:

                              Not really: looking at scripture, we have this:

                              John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

                              And we have this:

                              John 8:24 says Christ preached: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

                              We go preach the same thing.

                              There are some important points here to consider. The first is, that by implication if you believe that "Christ is He" then you will NOT die in your sins. If you do not believe that Christ is He, then you WILL die in your sins. So, whether or not we die in our sins is totally reliant on our Faith in Christ, He makes this clear. He sent the Apostles as the Father sent Him; so what He preached they'll preach.

                              Here's another important point to consider: We are so used to this idea, we forget to whom Christ is speaking and to whom these apostles are being sent. To the Jewish people of Christ's day, how were sins paid for? How could you avoid dieing in sin? You made a blood sacrifice, you made atonement. Christ said, not anymore; that animal sacrifice, that atonement is no longer good enough after He's through. After hearing Christ preach, or preached, the only way to salvation is by believing Christ was who He said He was; Christ made that clear.

                              So, we have the apostles going to people who have never heard Christ preached; after He is preached the only way to get your sins removed is via belief/faith in Christ, this is what Christ Himself preached. So, by preaching the gospel you are both remitting sin, and retaining it, depending on if those who listen either 1) believe (their sin is forgiven) and 2) don't believe (their sin is retained). After Christ is preached, there is no way out of their sin, except through belief in Christ, in effect, by preaching the word to new ears, you are locking them into either two choices. As Doc Scott used to say, "The same word brings life to some and death to others."

                              There are other ways of looking at this passage, as Tom has pointed out. However, I feel that by looking at the entire context of the Gospel message, such as

                              1) Paul's preaching Christ and Him raised as the number one main thing
                              2) Christ's shed blood for the remission of sin, and our Faith being what taps into that promise, not our sin confessions to other humans, or other humans actually forgiving sin directly
                              3) Belief in Christ is what frees us from sin, and grants eternal life, (this one is repeated over and over again in the Bible)

                              we can see that the gospel message of Faith in Christ Himself, not a human priest absolving sin in a confessional, is how we get forgiveness of sin. Again, confession one to another is a good thing, but not needed for us to rid ourselves of sin.
                              Last edited by Kliska; September 25th, 2007, 06:13 PM.

                              Thanks to sweeetlilgurlie on Narniaweb for the sig

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by House of Light View Post
                                John 20:23 Literally says this: Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose dins you do not forgive have not been forgiven"

                                God does not forgive peoples sins because we do do, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Instead, those who are ministering the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgving depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

                                .

                                I have posted this again.......

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