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  • Ihop

    Does anyone have any info in IHOP? not the eating place. Is it a good or bad thing?
    See you on the Battlefield,

    Comment


    • Bad bad bad.

      Here's *one* recent thread about them..... I'll see what else I can find.

      http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1473...highlight=ihop

      ETA: Here's another thread:

      http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?5892...highlight=ihop

      I hope reading through those gives you the info you need.

      Comment


      • There is lots of info on the board about IHOP--

        and when you research IHOP, you will find it has many relatives-

        Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson, the New Apostolic Reformation, roots in the Kansas City Prophets, Azusa street revival, Toronto Airport church manifestations.

        It sounds really good--24 hour prayer, worship to cause God's presence to fall, Lots of songs from the Bible. If you go to their website, watch some videos, etc, there is good sounding stuff mixed in with the problematic stuff.

        The problems are that the movement encourages experience--and experience becomes the draw instead of repentance and change and studying the Word. Mike Bickle is into the Bridal paradigm--so there are a lot of songs that are "Jesus is my boyfriend" type songs. Misty Edwards has a beautiful voice--there are a lot of videos of her, so you get the idea of the musical aspect--I"ve noticed that music pulls people in and they are emotionally affected by the music--not necessarily by an encounter with God.

        This is one of the big draws to IHOP and charismatic churches--people want to have a religious experience. Many of the experiences you see though are Kundalini type experiences--and there are videos that compare eastern kundalini awakening with extreme charismatic "Holy Spirit" manifestations. There are stories of people asking God to protect them from a manifestation if this is not the Holy Spirit moving, and they have not joined in with the flow of the manifestations. (I myself experienced this in a Word of Faith Church--but I could feel the pull of something spiritual)

        You can find youtube videos where people talk about leaving IHOP, and you can easily find at least 1 story of interns who are discouraged from keeping in contact with family members who disapprove of IHOP.

        The big picture to all of this is the ecumenical move. There is the saying that doctrine divides, but experience unites. The New Agers want a paradigm shift, and the New Apostolic Reformation (of which IHOP is a subset) wants a move of the Spirit to bring Heaven on earth so Jesus will return to His glorious church. If the Spirit moving through IHOP is not of God, then you can see how Satan can use this experience driven movement to move people toward a 1 world church.

        If you read through the Latter Rain thread, you can see the 2 viewpoints --God is sending a latter rain and there will be a great revival--, or Deception is going to increase, and the world is rushing toward the time of God's judgment of the tribulation.

        Comment


        • okay, thanks. I wasn't sure where to go or even start looking.
          See you on the Battlefield,

          Comment


          • http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM


            If you are not familiar with "charismania", this video has a lot of clips and history.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by booklover View Post
              http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM


              If you are not familiar with "charismania", this video has a lot of clips and history.
              Just watched this video, WOW! we are in the last days for sure.
              See you on the Battlefield,

              Comment


              • Again....I am having to rethink some things. I actually have been part of this phenomenon. The Brownsville FL revival for one. But you know what, that was many years ago for me, and circumstances thankfully changed my ideas to become more "sober and watchful" already. The Lord does work on our hearts and minds when we ask him to with all sincerity. He brought me out of an IHOP type church back in the late 90s. I had really been decieved. I

                Comment


                • Research Mike Bickle

                  Originally posted by jcalvert View Post
                  okay, thanks. I wasn't sure where to go or even start looking.
                  Research Mike Bickle, Kansas City Prophets, and follow the money trail. My niece is a deceived member of their cult. They have tried their best to alienate her from her family, because we all know she is following a false doctrine.

                  She used to be a sold out born again Southern Baptist, she rarely mentions Jesus anymore. You should hear their music / chants, some of their prayer sounds like vain bable and is very repetative. They prey on young impressionable adults and turn them into indentured servants.

                  Mike Bickle has been investigated for tax fraud and they have been sued by the pancake house for copyright infringement for stealing their name.

                  Comment


                  • Response to Criticisms of IHOP

                    I hope that people who genuinely desire truth will read this whole posting with an open mind. I am not part of IHOP and other than a friend who is on staff there have no affiliation with them. I currently attend a Vineyard church (you know, the group that IHOP disassociated itself from). I'm also a graduate of Vineyard Leadership Institute and love the Vineyard movement. If anything, I would have reason to be skeptical of IHOP.

                    No human or organization is infallible. No human or organization has a full grasp of truth. Mike Bickle would be the first to say this about himself and IHOP. He acknowledges that mistakes have been made over the years, but just like the rest of us, they strive to learn from mistakes. Many of the criticisms leveled at Mike and IHOP are at best hearsay and rumor. It's interesting and grieving to me that many of the things said about Mike and IHOP are things that were also said about Jesus by the religious establishment in Israel.

                    Two years ago, I didn't know anything about IHOP and hadn't even heard of them. When I heard that someone was in town who was from there, I wondered what the big deal was about a guy from the pancake place. As I began to learn more about them, I had some concerns and curiosities mostly fueld by the rumors and criticisms that have been spread. However, I also had heard many wonderful things about them from people that I greatly respect. Rather than simply believe everything I read or hear, as seems to be the common reaction from the critics, I chose to investigate it personally as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea did with Jesus. I began by asking questions of people who had direct experience with IHOP. I sought out objective research on the subject, not just online blogs and message boards that are often fueled by opinion and wild secondhand speculation. I read articles and reviews from respected sources. I asked frequent questions of my friend on staff there who I know personally to have great integrity and who does not simply follow blindly. I also extensively read information on IHOP's website which in their statement of beliefs, affirmations, and denials - they flatly contradict most of the accusations leveled against them, many of which are found on this message board. Finally, I visited IHOP personally, attended a Sunday morning service, spent time in the prayer room, and "interviewed" staff and interns regarding their experience with IHOP. Lastly and probably the most significant, I went to God in prayer offering up to Him my confusion, declaring my desire for wisdom and truth. I have no motive beyond a desire for truth to accept or embrace IHOP, but what I found was simply a group of passionate followers of Jesus who desire to grow in intimacy with God and to advance His Kingdom.

                    IHOP is NOT a cult of any kind unless devotion to Christ falls into that category, and it does NOT hang its philosophy of 24/7 prayer and worship on a single verse from Psalms. There are close to 2 dozen verses supporting their "model", probably more, that come from Isaiah and a few from Revelation, even some from the Gospels. The attraction of youth to IHOP stems from their pursuit of Biblical truth. Young people have a talent for seeing through smokescreens and generally know when they're being fed phony hype. Our youth are sick of business as usual with personal or denominational agendas. They want the real deal and God's agenda. They want intimacy, transparency, vulnerability, and passion. They want leaders who can admit when mistakes have been made rather than continuing to follow religious systems that are simply whitewashed tombs. Mike Bickle is NOT the CEO of IHOP. He is not getting rich from IHOP. The real estate company that his wife runs sinks all of its profits into ministry and outreach, works of justice to help the poor and victims of human trafficking. I saw his house. I guarantee it is the same size or smaller than what most of you live in, and it’s a duplex that he shares with his mom. He doesn’t drive any fancy cars. Seeing that most people will not bother to investigate IHOP's statement of beliefs for themselves, I will provide it here in hopes that some may be surprised by the error of their own conclusions. From the information I've collected and personal experience, I believe wholeheartedly that IHOP is genuine in its profession of these beliefs and affirmations/denials. Just because they do things differently than what you are familiar with does not mean that God isn’t in it. The current state of the typical church today is lukewarm. Most of the claims made regarding IHOP on the threads here are wild accusation with little if any foundation in reality. If you sincerely care about the truth, stop evaluating IHOP with human wisdom and the eyes of your flesh, and start praying for wisdom and ask God to reveal the truth.

                    "We believe that only the sixty-six books of the Bible are the inspired and, therefore, inerrant Word of God. The Bible is the final authority for all we believe and how we are to live. (Mt. 5:18; Jn.10:35, 17:17; 2 Tim. 3:16–17; 2 Pet. 1:20–21)

                    We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man; that He was conceived and born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and offered Himself as a penal, substitutionary sacrifice for sinners. By His blood shed at the cross, He obtained for us eternal redemption, the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. He was raised bodily on the third day and ascended to the right hand of the Father, there to make intercession for the saints forever. (Mt. 1:18–25; Jn. 1:1–18; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 15:1–28; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:10–14; Eph. 1:7; Phil. 2:6–11; Col. 1:15–23; Heb. 7:25, 9:13–15, 10:19; 1 Pet. 2:21–25; 1 Jn. 2:1–2)

                    We believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. No ordinance, ritual, work or any other activity on the part of man is required or accepted in order to be saved. This saving grace of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, also sanctifies us by enabling us to do what is pleasing in God's sight in order that we might be progressively conformed to the image of Christ. (Jn. 1:12–13, 6:37–44, 10:25–30; Acts 16:30–31; Rom. 3:1–4:23, 8:1–17, 31–39, 10:8–10; Eph. 2:8–10; Phil. 2:12–13; Titus 3:3–7; 1 Jn. 1:7, 9)

                    We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ baptizes believers in the Holy Spirit, in whom we are also sealed for the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit regenerates, forever indwells, and graciously equips the Christian for godly living and service. Subsequent to conversion, the Spirit desires to fill, empower, and anoint believers for ministry and witness. We also believe that signs and wonders, as well as all the gifts of the Spirit described in the New Testament, are operative today and are designed to testify to the presence of the kingdom and to empower and edify the Church to fulfill its calling and mission. (Mt. 3:11; Jn. 1:12–13, 3:1–15; Acts 4:29–30; Rom. 8:9, 12:3–8; 1 Cor. 12:12–13; 2 Cor. 1:21–22; Gal. 3:1–5; Eph. 1:13–14, 5:18)

                    We believe that the one true God exists eternally in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—and that these, being one God, are equal in deity, power, and glory. We believe that God not only created the world but also now upholds, sustains, governs, and providentially directs all that exists and that He will bring all things to their proper consummation in Christ Jesus to the glory of His name. (Ps. 104:1–35, 139:1–24; Mt. 10:29–31, 28:19; Acts 17:24–28; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 1:9–12, 4:4–6; Col. 1:16–17; Heb. 1:1–3; Rev. 1:4–6)

                    We believe that when Christians die, they pass immediately into the blessed presence of Christ, there to enjoy conscious fellowship with the Savior until the day of the resurrection and the glorious transformation of their bodies. The saved will then forever dwell in blissful fellowship with their great triune God. We also believe that when unbelievers die, they are consigned to hell, there to await the Day of Judgment when they shall be punished in the lake of fire with eternal, conscious, and tormented separation from the presence of God. (Mt. 25:46; Lk. 16:19–31; Jn. 5:25–29; 1 Cor. 15:35–58; 2 Cor. 5:1–10; Phil. 1:19–26, 3:20–21; 2 Thes. 1:5–10; Rev. 20:11–15, 21:1–22:15)

                    We believe that water baptism and the Lord's Supper are the two ordinances of the Church to be observed until the time of Christ's return. They are not a means of salvation, but are channels of God's sanctifying grace and blessing to the faithful in Christ Jesus. (Mt. 26:26–29, 28:19; Rom. 6:3–11; 1 Cor. 11:23–34; 1 Pet. 3:21)

                    We believe in the literal second coming of Christ at the end of the age when He will return to earth personally and visibly to consummate His kingdom. We believe that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation in great power and victory. We believe the Church will be raptured at the end of the Great Tribulation. We also believe in and are praying for a great end–time harvest of souls and the emergence of a victorious Church that will experience an unprecedented unity, purity, and power in the Holy Spirit. (Ps. 2:7–9, 22:27–28; Jn. 14:12, 17:20–26; Rom. 11:25–32; 1 Cor. 15:20–28, 50–58; Eph. 4:11–16; Phil. 3:20–21; 1 Thes. 4:13–5:11; 2 Thes. 1:3–12; Rev. 7:9–14)

                    We believe that Adam was originally created in the image of God, righteous and without sin. As a consequence of his disobedience, Adam's posterity is born subject to both imputed and inherent sin, and all humans are therefore by nature and choice the children of wrath, justly condemned in the sight of God, wholly unable to save themselves or to contribute in any way to their acceptance with God. (Gen. 1:1–3:22; Ps. 51:5; Isa. 53:5; Rom. 3:9–18, 5:12–21; Eph. 2:1–3)

                    We believe that the Church is God's primary instrument, through which He is fulfilling His redemptive purposes in the earth. To equip the saints for the work of ministry, God has given the Church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. We also affirm the priesthood of all believers and the importance of every Christian being joined with and actively involved in a local community of the saints. We believe that women, no less than men, are called and gifted to proclaim the gospel and do all the works of the kingdom. (Mt. 16:17–19; Acts 2:17–18, 42; Eph. 3:14–21, 4:11–16; 1 Tim. 2:11–15; Heb. 10:23–25; 1 Pet. 2:4–5, 9–10)

                    We believe that God has called the Church to preach the gospel to all nations, to especially remember the poor and to minister to their needs through sacrificial giving and practical service. This ministry is an expression of the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ and is an essential part of the kingdom of God. (Isa. 58:6–12, 61:1; Mt. 5:1–7:28; 28:18–20; Lk. 4:18, 21:1–4; Gal. 2:10; 1 Tim. 6:8)

                    We believe that Satan, originally the great and good angel Lucifer, rebelled against God, taking a multitude of angels with him. He was cast out of God's presence and is at work with his demonic hosts to establish his counter-kingdom of darkness, evil, and unrest on earth. Satan was judged and defeated at the cross of Christ and will be cast forever into the lake of fire which has been prepared for him and his angels. (Isa. 14:10–17; Ezek. 28:11–19; Mt. 12:25–29, 25:41; Jn. 12:31, 16:11; Eph. 6:10–20; Col. 2:15; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6; Rev. 12:7–9, 20:10)


                    Bridal Paradign

                    We affirm that the Bridegroom message is about Jesus' emotions for us, His beauty, His commitments to us (to share His heart, home, throne, secrets, and beauty), and our response of wholehearted love and obedience to Him. This message starts with experiencing Jesus' heart, emotions, and affections for us, and understanding that He delights in us, enjoys us, values our work, and calls us to partner with Him in ministry.
                    We affirm that the bridal paradigm refers to having a bridal perspective of the kingdom. As Christians, we see the kingdom through the eyes of a bride, with wholehearted, loyal love for God. There are many paradigms of the kingdom of God in Scripture, including agricultural, military, and economic paradigms. The Spirit uses the bridal paradigm of the kingdom to transform our hearts, so that the first commandment might take first place in our lives.

                    We deny, we refuse, all sensual overtones in proclaiming Jesus as the Bridegroom. Jesus is not our lover or boyfriend. We do not go on "dates" with Jesus. Receiving the "kiss of God's Word" (Song 1:2) has nothing to do with physically kissing God. Neither the spiritual interpretation of the Song of Solomon nor references to "the romance of the gospel" have anything to do with sensuality, but with the adventuresome love that is filled with a spirit of abandonment that sacrificially loves and obeys Jesus. An example of this is seen when Paul and Silas sang songs of love to Jesus after being beaten and thrown into prison (Acts 16:22–26).

                    Jesus was the first to introduce the bridal paradigm to the Church. He referred to Himself as a Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15); He compared the kingdom to His Father arranging a marriage for Him (Mt. 22:2); He described ministry as those encountering Him as a Bridegroom (Mt. 25:1); He will return in answer to the prayers of His Church crying out in her bridal identity (Rev. 22:17).

                    Passages that point to Jesus as the Bridegroom God: Isa. 54:4–12; 62:2–5; Jer. 2:2; 3:14; 31:32, Ezek. 16:13–15, 32; 23:1–45; Hos. 1:2; 2:7, 14–23; 3:1–5; Mt. 9:15; 22:1–14; 25:1–13; Jn. 3:29; 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:25-32; Rev. 19:7-9; 21:9; 22:17.

                    Intimacy with God
                    We affirm that spiritual intimacy with God refers to developing a deep personal relationship with God through the Spirit and the Word. In other words, it is based on a deep understanding and knowledge of what the Word of God says about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

                    We deny that spiritual intimacy is associated with anything related to human sensuality.

                    Explanation: For example, in Song of Songs 1:2, the phrase "kiss me with the kisses of his mouth" (NKJV) can be seen as an analogy, a divine metaphor referring to Jesus imparting revelation of the words of His mouth to our hearts. We speak of "the kisses of His Word," not of physical kisses from Jesus.


                    The Manifest Sons of God Theology

                    We affirm all born-again believers will be "manifest" as sons of God after the second coming of Christ.

                    We deny that we will experience the fullness of our inheritance as sons of God before Jesus returns.

                    Explanation: Some uphold the false teaching that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection.


                    The Latter Rain

                    We affirm that the Church will experience the greatest outpouring of the Spirit in history before Jesus returns (Joel 2:28–32). This outpouring will result in a great ingathering of souls and a renewing of the Church so that it walks in godliness as declared in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5:1–7:28). We affirm the presence of the fivefold ministry for the equipping of the saints (Eph. 4:11–13).

                    We deny the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.

                    Explanation: Some have wrongly identified our ministry today with the false teachings that were popularized by some in the Latter Rain movement. At no time in the past did we have any relationship with this movement.


                    Dominion Theology

                    We affirm that God’s purpose is for Jesus to come back to fully establish His kingdom rule over all the earth. After the second coming, the saints will rule the earth under the leadership of Jesus Christ when He sets up His government on earth in the millennial kingdom (1 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 5:10; 20:3–6). We believe that believers in this age are called to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation. We do not have the assurance that all laws and governments will be changed until after the second coming of Jesus to establish His millennial kingdom.

                    We deny that the Church will take over all the governments of the earth before the return of Christ.

                    Explanation: Some believe and teach that all governments on earth will be transformed by the Church before the second coming of Jesus.


                    Joel’s Army

                    We affirm that the army in Joel 2:1–11 was an ungodly Babylonian army that destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. We believe that this passage has a double fulfillment in that it also points to the Antichrist’s army that will attack Israel at the end of the age. We affirm that Joel was prophesying of the lifestyle of godly believers in Joel 2:12–17.

                    We deny that Joel 2:1–11 describes the end-time Church.

                    Explanation: The term "Joel’s army" has been used to signify the people who walk out the principles of prayer with fasting as taught in Joel 2:12–17. The term has been used much like "Joseph Company," "Gideon Band," or "David Company" to signify the people who embraced the godly qualities that Joel taught about prayer, fasting, and wholehearted obedience. Paul Cain had a prophetic word about a “Joel's army in training,” referring to a group of people who would give themselves to prayer and fasting according to Joel 2:12–17. When used like this, “Joel's army” does not refer specifically to the destroying army mentioned in Joel 2:1–11, but to people who walk out the Joel 2:12–17 lifestyle. The misunderstanding comes from giving the title “Joel’s army” to both the destroying army (Joel 2:1–11) and the group of people who give themselves to fasting and prayer (Joel 2:12–17).


                    The Use of Prophecy

                    We affirm that the Bible is the inerrant and sole objective source of direction and wisdom for the life of a believer. We believe in the operation of the prophetic ministry as a source of edification, exhortation, and comfort from the Lord (1 Cor. 14:3). We believe that the subjectivity of the prophetic ministry must be vigorously tested against the inspired and infallible Scriptures that God gave for doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).

                    We deny that subjective prophetic experiences are equal to the inspired Word of God. In other words, all personal prophecy must uphold and honor the Scripture.

                    Explanation: Simple prophecy is limited to edification, exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3). It is to enrich our spiritual life, rather than give direction in the domestic areas of our life. Edification speaks of spiritually building or edifying someone’s spirit by confirming their destiny or God’s purpose for their life. The most common way to edify through simple prophecy is to give a Scripture that has been previously important to them. Exhortation includes calling people to persevere and not give up on their promises to God in hard times, and not give in to sin. Comfort speaks of making known God’s perspective in a great disappointment or setback in a person’s life by giving God’s perspective in telling them that God has a plan in their time of pressure.

                    We urge people to avoid giving others prophetic direction in the domestic areas of their life. This includes issues related to spousal designation, bearing children, changing jobs, moving, buying or selling (i.e. house), or leaving one church for another, etc. We may give godly counsel to one another in domestic areas without presenting it as a prophecy. Personal prophecies should be given with others as witnesses (we request that prophecies be recorded when possible). Some people have an over-reliance on dreams for direction in their domestic lives. God never intended to direct people mostly by dreams. Yes, God does use dreams to give some direction; however, dreams are not to be a substitute for gaining wisdom from Scripture. Some people rely on dreams for decisions because it absolves them from responsibility and lacking wisdom if the decision turns out to be wrong (Eccl. 5:3, 7).


                    The Tabernacle of David

                    We affirm that the Holy Spirit is orchestrating a global worship and prayer movement that will operate in great authority (Lk. 18:7–8; Mt. 21:13; Rev. 5:8, 8:3–5, 22:17; Isaiah 62:6–7; Joel 2:12–17, 32). This prayer movement will operate in the spirit of the tabernacle of David.

                    We deny that the restoration of the tabernacle of David is the same as the end-time prayer movement.

                    Explanation: In the days of King David, he established a tabernacle that had singers and musicians who ministered to the Lord night and day. Today, the prayer movement is in the spirit of David’s tabernacle. This means that the prayer movement will have some components of the tabernacle of David, specifically pertaining to singers and musicians.

                    The promise of the restoration of the tabernacle of David refers to the governmental restoration of David’s international rule as part of the restoration of national Israel in the millennial kingdom.

                    The context of Amos 9:11–12 is the governmental rule of Jesus over all the nations from Jerusalem. In Acts 15:13–18, James referred to Amos 9:11 declaring that Gentiles should be accepted into the predominantly Jewish Body of Christ, without needing to convert to Judaism. The apostles understood that in the end times, God would re-establish the Messianic kingdom over all the nations. God had just visited the Gentiles with salvation at Cornelius’s house (Acts 10). This was in agreement with Old Testament prophecy. James quoted Amos to prove that many Gentiles will be saved in the context of the restoration of the Davidic dynastic reign. This restoration will, of course, include David’s heart for worship and prayer. Though Amos 9:11 is not prophesying primarily about 24/7 intercessory worship, it will be a foundational reality in the release of Jesus’ worldwide rule over the nations. The prophetic word given to Mike Bickle in May 1983 was that “God would release 24-hour-a-day prayer in the spirit of the tabernacle of David.” In other words, it would involve prophetic singers and musicians. The practice of worship and intercession is not, in itself, the actual restoration of David’s tabernacle."


                    If you took the time to read through all of this with an open mind, then I commend you. If you are still skeptical but genuinely desire the truth, then I would challenge you to go to God in prayer. Dare to accept that we are ALL fallible and need the Holy Spirit in conjunction with Scripture to be our teacher and bring the light of truth. I guarantee whatever church or organization you are a part of has plenty of room for growth and change and is far from being error free. IHOP is not perfect, but they are doing the work of God's Kingdom, and I guarantee that they have the backing of Heaven.

                    Love in Christ,
                    ~Brandon Petrowski

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Thespis View Post
                      I hope that people who genuinely desire truth will read this whole posting with an open mind.
                      I didn't quote the rest for sake of space. The biggest problem we have, well, there are several but among them are the experience based views that are taken with regards to The Holy Spirit and the "outpouring" in the latter days. The Bible ways Jesus returns to a few who are watching, (Rapture) and the returns as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Second Coming) IHOP does not hold to this nor do the KC bunch in total.

                      The prayer practices are mystical and experiential, and all these have been sited in this thread. Experience can confuse and usually does, so a person cannot dispute what is being done when a person will reply, "well it's the Spirit, you can't say it's wrong." This is how we get the todd bentleys of the world.

                      I also saw you posted from their site, but their "Dominionism" explanation does not tell the full story. The are not the, take over the government, kooks of the extreme end, but they are indeed political. An underlying principle is that the world needs to be turned back in the direction of righteousness and the church is to see that it happens.

                      No wonder he is dominion light, he thinks the church will endure the Tribulation.

                      From his own hand;

                      Post-Tribulation Rapture (“post-trib”) – The biblical teaching that the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the end of the Great Tribulation period. In other words, the Church will be on earth, walking in victory through the Great Tribulation. This will be the Church’s finest hour, when the power of God will be experienced in great measure, surpassing any other time in history.

                      Pre-Tribulation Rapture (“pre-trib”) – The unbiblical teaching that says the rapture occurs before the Great Tribulation. This popular teaching claims that Christians will not go through the Tribulation to escape God’s wrath. It is based on a fundamentally wrong view of the Great Tribulation as a time when God’s judgments could come on the saints if they were on earth.
                      http://www.prophecyblogs.com/tag/mike-bickle

                      Bad eschatology leads to bad doctrine. If we are to endure the Tribulation then mind numbing spirituality, worship and prayer based in experience are par for the course. There are numerous other problems, but those above are enough for me.
                      There is One King, and He is not this guy. sigpic

                      Comment


                      • Thespis - Please cite your post or it will have to be removed.

                        It's against the posting rules to promote IHOP:

                        [06] Do not promote false teachings , false prophets,...Mike Bickle's IHOP... http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=2

                        Also, no spamming the board.
                        "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 1:3b


                        Jesus + something = nothing

                        Jesus + nothing = Everything

                        Comment


                        • I did cite my post saying where the cited content came from. If you have a specific format for citation that is required, it must have escaped me. Also, I was not intending to promote IHOP. I was simply responding to the criticisms. This isn't truly a discussion board if it's all one sided and patting each other on the back for sharing like-minded views.

                          As far as their eschatology goes, I do not think the modern versions of the Bible that we have are clear enough to say for sure which is the correct view of the rapture, tribulation, and Christ's return. There is a vast difference between false teaching and disagreement about specifics. Regardless of who is right or wrong between these opposing views, the truth regarding the nature and timing of the rapture ultimately does not matter. We are called to be ready, period. We are called to preach the Gospel and make disciples, to love God and love others. The Gospel message is that Jesus died for us to be reconciled to God, He rose again conquering the grave, salvation is a free gift of grace, and He is coming back for His bride and the restoration of His original intent. As far as I have heard and witnessed, IHOP DOES most certainly believe that Jesus returns as the conquering king of Kings and Lord of lords. They just believe that the fashion and timing of His return is different than the way you see it.

                          Yes experience can confuse, but that does not invalidate it. Experience has to be measured against the Scripture which IHOP does advocate in agreement with the teachings of the Apostle Paul. Yes experiential advocacy has certainly been abused, but without experience, none of us would have ever been saved in the first place. The world will not be turned back to righteousness simply by speaking and preaching the truth. That is one component and a very necessary one, but the real power of turning the world back to righteousness comes from love. To summarize the Apostle Paul, "It doesn't matter how much knowledge, wisdom, truth, or good deeds you have, if you don't have love, you have nothing." This is the intent behind Jesus call for us to love others. People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. Your truth will fall on deaf ears no matter how true it is, if it is not supported on a foundation of love.

                          Whether we endure the tribulation or not, our primary call is a pursuit of intimacy and relationship with Jesus and freely giving that which we have received.

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                          • Originally posted by Thespis View Post
                            I did cite my post saying where the cited content came from. If you have a specific format for citation that is required, it must have escaped me. Also, I was not intending to promote IHOP. I was simply responding to the criticisms. This isn't truly a discussion board if it's all one sided and patting each other on the back for sharing like-minded views.

                            As far as their eschatology goes, I do not think the modern versions of the Bible that we have are clear enough to say for sure which is the correct view of the rapture, tribulation, and Christ's return. There is a vast difference between false teaching and disagreement about specifics. Regardless of who is right or wrong between these opposing views, the truth regarding the nature and timing of the rapture ultimately does not matter. We are called to be ready, period. We are called to preach the Gospel and make disciples, to love God and love others. The Gospel message is that Jesus died for us to be reconciled to God, He rose again conquering the grave, salvation is a free gift of grace, and He is coming back for His bride and the restoration of His original intent. As far as I have heard and witnessed, IHOP DOES most certainly believe that Jesus returns as the conquering king of Kings and Lord of lords. They just believe that the fashion and timing of His return is different than the way you see it.

                            Yes experience can confuse, but that does not invalidate it. Experience has to be measured against the Scripture which IHOP does advocate in agreement with the teachings of the Apostle Paul. Yes experiential advocacy has certainly been abused, but without experience, none of us would have ever been saved in the first place. The world will not be turned back to righteousness simply by speaking and preaching the truth. That is one component and a very necessary one, but the real power of turning the world back to righteousness comes from love. To summarize the Apostle Paul, "It doesn't matter how much knowledge, wisdom, truth, or good deeds you have, if you don't have love, you have nothing." This is the intent behind Jesus call for us to love others. People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. Your truth will fall on deaf ears no matter how true it is, if it is not supported on a foundation of love.

                            Whether we endure the tribulation or not, our primary call is a pursuit of intimacy and relationship with Jesus and freely giving that which we have received.
                            The "experience" of the KC Prophets and other highly charismatic types have given us doctrinal nightmares like the "Totonto Blessing" the "Lakeland Revival" and so many other, angel feathers falling from the sky, gold dust, oil pouring from hands and feet yada yada.

                            Point is much that happens around IHOP and sympathetic kindred views is leading to some very dark stuff. Do you know Todd Bently for one looks at Mike Bickle and the KC Prophets as people who gave him his inspiration? Is that not in the least bit troubling?

                            Ever watch the stuff those guys produce? I see no love, I certainly see no clear presentation of the gospel. I see an over the top dog and pony show that makes Corinth look tame.

                            I can disagree agreeably, but that stuff gives Jesus a black eye and is not of The Lord. I happen to be more charismatic than many here, but I want nothing to do with that mess.

                            What we believe of eschatology matters greatly as it will change how we engage the world. As for we can't know, I beg to differ. Question is will we be diligent to look at it from all views and forget what we have been told? Will we look to the early church and see their view? Contemporary writers to John, whom they knew were Pre Millennial and Pre Trib. Scripture is quite clear and God would not have us ignorant. Oddly enough, given his blog post, Bickle is not as gracious as you since he calls Pre Trib "unbiblical"

                            Have a look at a book Bickle and Bob Jones authored "Visions and Revelations" he claims to have had an out of body experience, went to heaven and saw God "face to face". If you are cool with that OK, me, not so much.

                            Many other things can be provided, but this thread has that info and you seem unmoved, so I suppose I am wasting time? I assume you read the whole thread, right?
                            There is One King, and He is not this guy. sigpic

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                            • I read through most of this thread for the first time, not knowing anything about ihop. Just the stories of ex-members and friends of current members talking about controlling the members, spying on them etc., if true, are definite signs of a cult-like organization, regardless of what their charter say.
                              Way more than enough info in this thread to make me stay far away.
                              I just pray the Holy Spirit will open up the eyes of the leaders before it's too late.
                              When I read stuff like this I'm always reminded that Our God is not the author of confusion.

                              Comment


                              • Can a Male Moderator Pls Enlighten me about IHOP (the false religious group not restaurant!)

                                I recently met a lady who mentioned some involvement with this movement--either they used to be a part of it and aren't now, or they still are. I just said, "ohhh" b/c I have seen on here that it is listed as something bad so trust it is, but want to get a general understanding so I can find out if she is in fact trying to leave that or not. Since she is looking for a church, I'm hoping that means she isn't in it (ie do they have actual churches and meetings like a Baptist would, so that looking for a church indicates having left that or can one be a part of it but going to a regular church??). I know I can google but it is hard to weed out what is accurate and I trust you folks. I prefer to hear from one of the men moderators.

                                Thank you!!
                                Ann

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