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-wrEk-
March 31st, 2011, 03:18 AM
Hi gang :wave

I was doing some thinking about how no one knows the day except the Father, and gave it more thought. Some folks I talk with say even if we did know, God would change the date. I don't particularly buy this method of thinking because it would clearly undermine God, showing we have the ability.

I'm feeling there is nothing wrong with people guessing, because even if we "guessed" right, we still never knew it. Think about that one more time. :lol2

I could guess a persons age, and if I got it right, I still never "knew" the age. So when I read the verse about, 'only the Father knows the time and date', as much as one would try and wrap their minds around it, it's so true! Sorry, I'm getting excited about this! :heh

Any thoughts? Or am I just way out in Lala land? :pound

DISCLAIMER: I'm not expecting people to guess dates by any means, so please don't turn this into another "closed" thread.

Steve53
March 31st, 2011, 04:30 AM
Your idea is not odd at all, in fact, it's been discussed here a few times in the context of other discussions.

You are correct in that nobody knows despite what they may claim. You are also correct in saying that a guess is not certain knowledge.

Jesus meant what He said - Nobody knows.

HeIsEnough
March 31st, 2011, 05:48 AM
Your idea is not odd at all, in fact, it's been discussed here a few times in the context of other discussions.

You are correct in that nobody knows despite what they may claim. You are also correct in saying that a guess is not certain knowledge.

Jesus meant what He said - Nobody knows.

:nod

wrEk, there are negatives to this, which is why we have the rules that we do, just to be clear. Guesses become something more serious when someone uses scripture to "prove" it, like the current Rosh Hashanah wave sweeping through prophecy groups. Paul even had to point out things to people so that they were not alarmed and concerned over certain prophecies, and this issue fits right in with that concept.

acceptedintheBeloved
March 31st, 2011, 10:45 AM
Knowledge of Rapture or 2nd coming?

Hi gang

I was doing some thinking about how no one knows the day except the Father, and gave it more thought. Some folks I talk with say even if we did know, God would change the date. I don't particularly buy this method of thinking because it would clearly undermine God, showing we have the ability.

I don't buy that either. It makes God out to be a wimp.

Especially because Scripture says that "the end shall be AT THE TIME APPOINTED" (Daniel 8:19, 11:27, 11:35), and Acts 17:31NASB says, "He has FIXED A DAY when He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed..."


I'm feeling there is nothing wrong with people guessing, because even if we "guessed" right, we still never knew it. Think about that one more time.

There is nothing wrong with "searching the Scriptures" to see what they have to say on the subject (any subject), as opposed to simply mimicking what people have said the Scriptures say about a particular subject (Acts 17:11). There are many things our Lord WANTS us to "KNOW." That's why He placed them in His Word... for our benefit and JOY. Paul said (a few times), "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren..."

Three things about the "no man knows the day or the hour" type verses:

1) this "know" (here) is in the "present tense," meaning "no one knew, AT THE TIME SPOKEN"

2) "know" is the kind that means "intuitive knowledge" or "apart from study." So in other words, "no one [presently] knows [intuitively]..."

3) "know" is in the context of His Second Coming. "No one [presently] knows [intuitively/apart from study] the day or the hour [of His Second Coming]."

It is not saying no one will EVER know. :nono

I believe Christ knew perfectly, after His resurrection/ascension. I believe the future trib people have the potential to "know," if only they will heed His Word. Believers will do so, unbelievers won't. Either way, the information is already IN HIS WORD (in Daniel, Revelation, etc)...
basically, "2520 days from the confirmation of the covenant"... not that it would be an easy thing to "endure to the end" (as they are instructed to do).

IMO, it is mere "human reasoning" to apply this verse to our rapture.


I could guess a persons age, and if I got it right, I still never "knew" the age. So when I read the verse about, 'only the Father knows the time and date', as much as one would try and wrap their minds around it, it's so true! Sorry, I'm getting excited about this!

If one week I said something like, "No one knows the age of my friend, Vinny Esposito" (indeed, for you have never met him, nor seen him, and have no info about him)... but then a week later, I gave you a list of 100 clues as to his age, and concluded with "His birthday is on the day many people sit around a decorated evergreen tree in their living room, opening gifts and singing carols... and his birth year was the same as [insert some known event in history]," then for you to simply (and repeatedly) quote my initial "No one knows the age of my friend, Vinny Esposito" would be (to put it bluntly) downright ignorant. :hehee


Any thoughts? Or am I just way out in Lala land?

I like your thoughtful thoughts. :) I can see why RR has the rules that they do, but IMHO, I think it's perfectly fine for mature Christians to discuss (amongst themselves) just what the Word has to say on the subject. It's not as simple as the "Vinny's Age/Birthday" example (above), but it's not as (completely) unclear as clinging tenaciously to the initial sentence in light of further revelation, either.

IMO, many people are kept from understanding the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, in their own churches, in the same way...
because they follow the teaching(s) of a certain person (for example, teachers who point to Matthew 24:29-31, 31 in order to "prove" a post-trib rapture of the Church), rather than "searching the Scriptures" to see if these things are so.
Even the Bereans were commended because they searched the Scriptures, to see if what Paul was telling them lined up with it. :glasses
It required them to change their thinking a bit. Something we all struggle with, at times. :hat
.

Pistos
March 31st, 2011, 01:56 PM
The reason no one will know the day or hour?

Matthew 24-29
Mark 13-24
Luke 21-25
Revelation 16-10

Difficult to know any day or hour in total darkness and no sun, moon, or stars to guide them.

acceptedintheBeloved
March 31st, 2011, 02:17 PM
The reason no one will know the day or hour?

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24
Luke 21:25
Revelation 16:10

Difficult to know any day or hour in total darkness and no sun, moon, or stars to guide them.

I was almost going to post a bit about that (similarly), as well... but I was tiring out from all the typing (I'm very slow at it :lol2 ), but hoped it would be somewhat "understood" in the comment which I DID make:


... not that it would be an easy thing to "endure to the end" (as they are instructed to do).

However, nice point. :thumb

In the first half of the trib, they might be able to "know" the precise information (given in God's Word), but by the time the events of second half of the trib occur (or toward the end, there), they might find it an extreme challenge to "know it [the precise info] by experience." :hat




.
Another point:

Matthew 24:36 (context: Second Coming)


Matthew 24:36

"But of that day and hour knoweth [G1492 "eidō"] no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." - Matthew 24:36

John 20:8-9 (Peter and "that other disciple [whom Jesus loved]" at the tomb, after His resurrection)


John 20:8-9

"That other disciple" ... "he saw [G1492 "eidō"], and believed." - John 20:8

"For as yet they knew [G1492 "eidō"] not the scripture, that He must rise again from the dead." - John 20:9

:thinking

Nightelf
March 31st, 2011, 03:42 PM
Hi gang :wave

Some folks I talk with say even if we did know, God would change the date. I don't particularly buy this method of thinking because it would clearly undermine God, showing we have the ability.
.

I heard a pastor preach on this very thing last week, he addressed it by saying, "God is not playing 'dodge the date'" as if people's foolish date setting had God constantly reworking His end times "calendar" :) He will come when He comes, I believe since He knows all and is not confined to the timeline like we are, He knows exactly when He steps in to our History, just as He did in the past.

iSong6:3
March 31st, 2011, 03:42 PM
:nod

wrEk, there are negatives to this, which is why we have the rules that we do, just to be clear. Guesses become something more serious when someone uses scripture to "prove" it, like the current Rosh Hashanah wave sweeping through prophecy groups. Paul even had to point out things to people so that they were not alarmed and concerned over certain prophecies, and this issue fits right in with that concept.

Adding on to this, for the purposes of this board, people being what we are, the attempt to pinpoint a *guess* takes over, obsessions start, fights break out, people look for dates and forget the Rapture is imminent, people get discouraged when it doesn't happen on *their date*, etc. That's not what this board is about.

If that doesn't answer you, -wrEk-, it's for others reading. :thumb

-wrEk-
April 1st, 2011, 01:22 AM
Adding on to this, for the purposes of this board, people being what we are, the attempt to pinpoint a *guess* takes over, obsessions start, fights break out, people look for dates and forget the Rapture is imminent, people get discouraged when it doesn't happen on *their date*, etc. That's not what this board is about.

If that doesn't answer you, -wrEk-, it's for others reading. :thumb

It answered clearly and I believe we are on the same page since I added the DISCLAIMER on the bottom of my OP. :hat

Another example is the, guess how many jelly beans are in the jar. In all fairness we would never know, even if we got it right, it wasn't knowledge of the amount, it was a guess.